How big?

[spincityfan]

This is the sort of fish I think we're all dreaming about... what do we think, 25lb + ??????

More like 12mm on the camera and 5lb on the scales....

must be a wide angled lens, look at the size of his finger

[Donky123]

I think your wrong mark, for once, i think the zander record is the only record that could be blown away in the uk, by a massive fish certainly over 25 if not near 30.

there are some tidal waters that never get fished

Yes mate, I hope I'm wrong too! I'm with Mark, 25+ I think could be a bridge too far for a UK fish? Maybe we'll see an outsized monster pop up out of nowhere, that would be magic. A 19 only has to eat 4lbs of skinner flesh and there you go....

The reality? Given that fish over 18 are rare enough, over 19 rarer still and over 20... I still think a lowish 20 is about the limit and 25 would be something completely amazing. The waters accross in Holland and so on and very different to what we have over here. Grafham gave us a taste of that with a few very big doubles and some stories of 20+ fish (stories, I need to emphasise that word!), but that was a bit of a one off and the fishing there has dropped off a long way from the looney season that was. Who knows though? I too think one of the tidal areas on certain rivers could well throw up a lump and don't ever discount the trout waters as they are starting to appear in more than a few of those places. But, and it's a big Clarkson but with plenty of mayo, 25+ in the UK? I doubt it but it doesn't stop me dreaming about it and it's great to hear the enthusiasm out there to see such a beast

I would have thought that if the Zander population in Grafham has decreased significantly, then the fewer remaining fish would have the opportunity to grow bigger, with there being more food to go round, so the fishing will be harder but maybe with bigger fish to be had? This often seems to be the way with pike waters.

It doesn't work like that for zander, its about food availability during the first few years that relates to how fast and big they grow. hence why rutland is full of small ones of the same year class, that don't get any much bigger.

IMO graf won't do a 25+ zander, unless it is a fish in April / may and is full of spawn.

loved to be proved wrong though

[spincityfan]

found this story while searching http://www.gofishing.co.uk/Angling-Time ... ed-record/

[Mark Phillips]

Yep, Grafham was a unique set of circumstances which led to that sudden explosion which we saw a few years back and of course, those big zeds that came out. Looking back, there weren't as many huge fish as I think people realise.
Coppen's fish? OK it's one of those bloody pictures that gets half a dozen different responses! Maybe watch the dvd you'd see it is actually a bloody big zander? I wouldn't say no to it anyway! Looks big enough to me I have to say

[Fentiger01]

It's a great question Mark I'm not sure we'll see a Zed over 25lbs but if we do, I believe it'll be a real one off and will come from a massive venue such as Grafham or a venue such as that where just maybe, a fish could find a bit of water to hide. Every time I've walked down to my local stretch of tidal river this summer / autumn, be that fishing or just walking the dogs, I've seen guys fishing from boats and the bank, so at least one tidal river is seeing a bit of pressure.

I'll stick my neck right out but I don't think (hope I'm wrong though) that the majority of Fen Venues have the potential to do a fish anywhere near that big. One particular drain I've fished a lot over the last 15 years has contained Zander for almost 40 years, is packed out with baitfish, does great Pike from time to time and has provided some great Zed sport over the years but the biggest of half a dozen doubles I've had there (although a lovely fish), remains a modest 11.6! My mate has just landed his first double from this particular drain after fishing it for 15 years (only a few nights per year granted) and it weighed in at 10.4, it was his 41st double (he's had them to 15lb+ from other venues) and really knows his onions. My point is that the fish just don't seem to get that big, of course there are bigger fish rumoured from the venue but in all the time I've fished it, I've seen pics of perhaps 3 fish over 12lb from the entire drain and of course this is a mere 50% of the size you're talking about!

Since around 04, a fair proportion of Zander (along with plenty of other species, birds and whatever else) caught on this particular venue have sadly ended up on the BBQ so numbers have also been thinned out quite a bit. Despite some quite heroic bailiffing, this is a water that unfortunately suffers pressure ALL year round so in my opinion it'll go one way or another, either it'll be ruined or with much less competition for the few surviving Zeds, it may produce the odd surprise. I've just used this drain as an example as I'm sure that most of them are in a similar boat now unfortunately.

For sure though, a 25lb fish would be absolutely immense!

[Mark Phillips]

That's a very good post Dave, thanks for sharing your thoughts with us mate.

Can't remember who said this to me? "Outsized fish are usually man-made." With pike we know that if a certain set of circumstances exist, then they pack on the weight. Most of us who fish the drains know that fish kills, usually salt water influx, often lead to a predator/prey inbalance and then we see those 30+ fish that simply wouldn't exist if it were not for that set of circumstances. Trout waters, small venues packed with prey fish, back-filling pits, and so the list goes on. I can't help but think that a big zander (let's say 25+ for sake of argument) will only come about in our waters if some such set of events occurrs?

I would only add that zander aren't everywhere (yet) and we could yet see them taking a foot hold in waters that could offer them a better chance of attaining the size we know they can attain on contintental Europe? Grafham isn't a big water really and we do have other resis, big river systems, etc where, if zander got a foothold, we could see an uplift in the ceiling weight for UK fish? I just think right here and now, low 20 is as far as one could expect them to get to, freak/outsized fish accepted.

Nice to have a really good discussion, so thanks one and all. Some really good insights from you chaps on this topic. If I do get a 25+ zander this season, of course I'll eat my underpants, but I've probably got more chance with the euro millions!

[andrew_nagel]

Waters that produce really big zeds rarely do it for long. However, they do tend to reappear some years later again in many cases. It seems unrelated to fishing pressure in my experience, and more related to water quality. Waters containing zeds, pike and perch seem to be the ones that throw up the biggest zeds, but rarely at a time when the perch population is also throwing up big fish. There seems to be a cycle between the populations of the 2 species in the waters I fish. I think that a low 20 is a realistic target at certain times of the year where I am. This year especially due to the fry survival rate with all the wet weather. The zeds are better fed at this time this year than they were for the last 2 years.

[Andy Scott]

Do we think that Grafham would have produced something of this size if it had remained untapped for a few more years?

[Mark Phillips]

Do we think that Grafham would have produced something of this size if it had remained untapped for a few more years?

Good question Andy. I think one more year, so yes bigger, but not 25+. May be low 20's tops IMO. Any more time than that and I think a few of them would be brown bread through natural causes. I am sure those biggies were close to the end of their life when we caught them. The smaller doubles I had were however 'younger looking' fish and one assumes from a different year class? One or two of those have come through I think, but are not getting to the weights we saw before. The odd 15 or 16 is still a possibility on there IMO but the fishing is nothing like what it was. People were getting takes non-stop and it was very easy, even for those who had little experience of vertical jigging methods. Now? Well, it's hard going but still worth a punt of course. Pretty much how I'd describe the pike fishing right now as well. Anyway, I'll be there this season as it's quite close to home for me and well, there's still zander in there and I'm happy to admit that a low double is plenty enough to put a smile on my face...

Could it be a bit like big pike in trout waters? Weight gain at an accelerated rate was the positive (for us) but to the detriment of life span. The circumstances that lead to that weight gain being somewhat unique of course. The amount of zander fry in the place in the years leading up to the spike we saw was quite something according to mates who trout fish the place. Be interesting if anyone knew the age of some of the 17's and 18's that were caught? Where's Bretty?! Colin, you know more about the place than anyone I can think of. What's your thoughts on Andy's question?

[Ratty46]

great thread!! interesting read.

i do wonder if the severn, tidal thames or even somewhere like roswell or grafham could do a big zed.

who knows!?

one things for sure, i do find BIG zander more impressive than pike of the same size.

that Luc Coppens one is ferking awesome looking!!

[Fentiger01]

That's a very good post Dave, thanks for sharing your thoughts with us mate.

You're very welcome Mark, very welcome indeed mate, a great thread actually!

My outside bet would be the tidal Trent as it is just so big and some of the area's the Zeds are now getting a foothold on can be very difficult to fish indeed. Just how do you cover a water that big? I believe it's done a number of 16's now and in fairness, Zander have only really been featuring as a realistic target there for most, in the last 6 or 7 years or so! I also wouldn't bet against Rutland myself.

[Clarkey1972]

Do we think that Grafham would have produced something of this size if it had remained untapped for a few more years?

Thats what I was thinking Andy

I'd love to think the trent (tidal or otherchwise) would turn up a lump like that Dave but I cant see it doing anything as big as a 25.

Dreaming about it certainly helps getting out of bed on a cold winters morning thats for sure.

Ri

[JohnCostello]

A very interesting thread. If it ever happened (a 25+ fish) the nice thing is that it would be a totally unknown fish. But let's not forget there is a huge difference between 20lb and 25lb zander. Look at it another way a 25+ zander is the equivalent of a 50lb pike and whilst there have been a number of British waters which have produced 40+ pike, none of them have got close to 50, whereas there are one or two places in Europe which have got close to that weight. And I suspect the same is true of zander.



But it is nice to dream

[carlallen]

I wonder what this weighs ?

That looks like it could weigh anything you like, it looks absolutly enormous.
rob

I've no idea either Rob I can't remember where I got that picture definitely it's continental and by with the way it's being held you can see it's genuinely big.

I sent you that Martin. It was caught from maggiore in Italy. One or two manage to avoid all the nets and get to this size. There is a Dutch water I've been told of where the zander really gorge on the smelt when they come in to spawn and thirties have been caught but as it's a poor pike water I've yet to fish it.

[philbrown]

Do we think that Grafham would have produced something of this size if it had remained untapped for a few more years?

in 2001 the sheer number of zander (and pike) that were being culled by trout anglers was a sight to behold, averaging 7lb - 9lb and a good amount of low doubles were killed and i mean certain boats coming in with dozens of dead fish! one boat came in with a 34lb + pike ( scales bottomed) a double zed and 3lb perch plus many smaller samples, this was before any kind of ruling was in place. i could go on as i was out that day.

so i'm thinking because of this cull, maybe thats why we had a glut of super sized fish 3 or 4 years ago? in a way it may of thinned out a year class when lots of food was available and the ones left tucked into the abundant perch that were present and went on to be super zeds, god what a season, happy days!!

[merlin]

what happened though to all the prey fish shoals that were in Grafham? I remember going to the boil that first year and getting huge great shoals on the finder, the next year diddly squat, what the hell happened to all of them?

[philbrown]

who knows what the sounder shows for sure, in my opinion what was showing on the finder was the fish that we were catching not bait fish, there were enough down there to fill your screen all day and by god we caught them all day long!
towards the end of the day less fish were showing and those that were started to move up in the water quickly and became more difficult to catch.

i can't see that ever being repeated to such an extent, a freak day or two?

[martin godliman]

I wonder what this weighs ?

That looks like it could weigh anything you like, it looks absolutly enormous.
rob

I've no idea either Rob I can't remember where I got that picture definitely it's continental and by with the way it's being held you can see it's genuinely big.

I sent you that Martin. It was caught from maggiore in Italy. One or two manage to avoid all the nets and get to this size. There is a Dutch water I've been told of where the zander really gorge on the smelt when they come in to spawn and thirties have been caught but as it's a poor pike water I've yet to fish it.

It came back to me after while Carl and I remembered it came from you, I posted in hast and afterwards wondered if I had goofed posting it all .....I believe I know those Dutch waters you're talking about

I wonder if a water like Maggiore was down the road from where you live any of us could stand to fish it blanking day after day for the chance of a gigantic pike or zander ?

[merlin]

who knows what the sounder shows for sure, in my opinion what was showing on the finder was the fish that we were catching not bait fish, there were enough down there to fill your screen all day and by god we caught them all day long!
towards the end of the day less fish were showing and those that were started to move up in the water quickly and became more difficult to catch.

i can't see that ever being repeated to such an extent, a freak day or two?

certainly agree with you to a point Phil, you can pick the zander hoals up easily on rutland for sure with a finder, but there was certainly prey fish down there too as Denis on my boat caught a pretty small perch, and i remember vividly because I have only seen them there and on the ouse, those almot perfect round balls of fish like you see on the telly in the sea, and there was always more scattered shoals not too far off which i took to be zeds.

[martin godliman]

I wonder to what extent depth is a factor ? As zander can live happily at great depth perhaps they can be at an unfishable depth for a lot of the time? It would have to be over 80ft though I've had them that deep.

[Mark Phillips]

Going back to Grafham, when I was fishing it on the back end of the bonanza that was (sadly I missed out on the first few weeks of it), I caught a lot of perch and quite a few pike, as well as lots of zander. In fact, I was getting as many perch as I was zander at some times. Most of the pike I had were not very big, with the best one I had going 18.10. but to be fair, I wasn't targetting them anyway, so no complaints from me. I'd see a lot of stuff on the sounder and would often wonder, is that really all fish down there? I think the answer is a resounding yes. I have a very good sonar and know how to use it. What I was seeing, aside from the individual, larger fish were huge shoals of fry and a lot of perch that were a lot smaller than the ones we'd be getting on the jigs. That was reenforced by seeing what the Grebes were bringing up - lots of small stuff. It was like everything had gone a bit bonkers and the whole biomass was in overdrive that season. The cormorants were having a field day too. God knows how many perch they were eating per day and most of those were pound plus fish I'm sorry to say.

[harelawhenry]

f****n hate ZANDER THEY R CRAP ...........IM A PIKER



LOL

[Barbelist]

That Luc Coppens picture fails my usually reliable nostril test....



























....the angler holding the fish should be able to get his finger up his own nose with no problems like the rest of us can!!

He would need open head surgery after digging out a bogey with them fingers !!!!!

Still a big fish but would look better held against his body and not in outstretched arms



Paul

[Fentiger01]

I like the cut of your Jib Paul!

[colinb]

Do we think that Grafham would have produced something of this size if it had remained untapped for a few more years?

in 2001 the sheer number of zander (and pike) that were being culled by trout anglers was a sight to behold, averaging 7lb - 9lb and a good amount of low doubles were killed and i mean certain boats coming in with dozens of dead fish! one boat came in with a 34lb + pike ( scales bottomed) a double zed and 3lb perch plus many smaller samples, this was before any kind of ruling was in place. i could go on as i was out that day.

so i'm thinking because of this cull, maybe thats why we had a glut of super sized fish 3 or 4 years ago? in a way it may of thinned out a year class when lots of food was available and the ones left tucked into the abundant perch that were present and went on to be super zeds, god what a season, happy days!!

[colinb]

Do we think that Grafham would have produced something of this size if it had remained untapped for a few more years?

Be interesting if anyone knew the age of some of the 17's and 18's that were caught? Where's Bretty?! Colin, you know more about the place than anyone I can think of. What's your thoughts on Andy's question?

Age of the Zander? I should have asked Billy H for a scale from the 17 he had set up.
As for Andy's question, yes I know the water pretty well but I don't have a glass ball. I'd like to think G can produce a record but can't see it happening soon. I know rumours abound and are sometimes pushed by one of the fishery staff but I think they are just that rumours. The fry situation is dour yet again, hardly any, the same as last year. I can only guess that the coarse fish stocks are incredibly low due to the hit made by Cormorants. The only things producing quantities of fry would be Zander if there's any left after Alan W and I killed them all in 2007
I fished there yesterday, 1st time with lures for 3 years, and had 1 hit all day. I've only had 7 all season on fly whereas in previous years I've had quite a few more.

Phil [Brown] touches on a good point about the slaughter in 2001, the pike took a massive hit and have never recovered to the pre-2000 period. I've hardly caught a pike from G in the last year or so.

The one upside to G is the Killer Shrimp that are now present there. I know there's a massive downside to them as well but they are obviously a great food source for all the fish in there. The trout are thriving on them and several big trout have already been caught this season so the signs are good especially if the Zander are on them as well.
The downside to the KS is they are there in their billions and are big enough [25mm+] to wipe out any fly life that is presently in G plus they eat fish eggs and fry so it might be to the detriment of the water. Time will tell.

[merlin]

Do we think that Grafham would have produced something of this size if it had remained untapped for a few more years?

Be interesting if anyone knew the age of some of the 17's and 18's that were caught? Where's Bretty?! Colin, you know more about the place than anyone I can think of. What's your thoughts on Andy's question?

Age of the Zander? I should have asked Billy H for a scale from the 17 he had set up.
As for Andy's question, yes I know the water pretty well but I don't have a glass ball. I'd like to think G can produce a record but can't see it happening soon. I know rumours abound and are sometimes pushed by one of the fishery staff but I think they are just that rumours. The fry situation is dour yet again, hardly any, the same as last year. I can only guess that the coarse fish stocks are incredibly low due to the hit made by Cormorants. The only things producing quantities of fry would be Zander if there's any left after Alan W and I killed them all in 2007
I fished there yesterday, 1st time with lures for 3 years, and had 1 hit all day. I've only had 7 all season on fly whereas in previous years I've had quite a few more.

Phil [Brown] touches on a good point about the slaughter in 2001the pike took a massive hit and have never recovered to the pre-2000 period. I've hardly caught a pike from G in the last year or so.
,
The one upside to G is the Killer Shrimp that are now present there. I know there's a massive downside to them as well but they are obviously a great food source for all the fish in there. The trout are thriving on them and several big trout have already been caught this season so the signs are good especially if the Zander are on them as well.
The downside to the KS is they are there in their billions and are big enough [25mm+] to wipe out any fly life that is presently in G plus they eat fish eggs and fry so it might be to the detriment of the water. Time will tell.

Hmmm not sure about that Colin. Fished open day last year and there were probably more pike out than any other opening day I have been on. And we havent heard much about this year yet, could be a reason for that

[Jonno]

Do we think that Grafham would have produced something of this size if it had remained untapped for a few more years?

Be interesting if anyone knew the age of some of the 17's and 18's that were caught? Where's Bretty?! Colin, you know more about the place than anyone I can think of. What's your thoughts on Andy's question?

Age of the Zander? I should have asked Billy H for a scale from the 17 he had set up.
As for Andy's question, yes I know the water pretty well but I don't have a glass ball. I'd like to think G can produce a record but can't see it happening soon. I know rumours abound and are sometimes pushed by one of the fishery staff but I think they are just that rumours. The fry situation is dour yet again, hardly any, the same as last year. I can only guess that the coarse fish stocks are incredibly low due to the hit made by Cormorants. The only things producing quantities of fry would be Zander if there's any left after Alan W and I killed them all in 2007
I fished there yesterday, 1st time with lures for 3 years, and had 1 hit all day. I've only had 7 all season on fly whereas in previous years I've had quite a few more.

Phil [Brown] touches on a good point about the slaughter in 2001the pike took a massive hit and have never recovered to the pre-2000 period. I've hardly caught a pike from G in the last year or so.
,
The one upside to G is the Killer Shrimp that are now present there. I know there's a massive downside to them as well but they are obviously a great food source for all the fish in there. The trout are thriving on them and several big trout have already been caught this season so the signs are good especially if the Zander are on them as well.
The downside to the KS is they are there in their billions and are big enough [25mm+] to wipe out any fly life that is presently in G plus they eat fish eggs and fry so it might be to the detriment of the water. Time will tell.

Hmmm not sure about that Colin. Fished open day last year and there were probably more pike out than any other opening day I have been on. And we havent heard much about this year yet, could be a reason for that

There wern't that many out Mark last year, I think Graham and I had more than half of them in our boat, and nearly everyone else blanked, my mate has been on there all day today, and had 1 small zed, he is pike fishing, its a hard water for pike. And a hard water now for zeds too, hence on opening day there would have been enough people to fill about 4 boats, if it hadn't been cancelled due to the wind.