The Pikers Pit

Jason Skilton wrote:

Zander are known to have large eyes and are believed to favour feeding in the dusk/dark rather than during the daylight.

It is also believed that they like pike have an acute sensor of smell, but what about other senses, doing they feel/hear vibration like pike for instances.

I can't find may studies on zander and their senses.

Ian Crook wrote:

Worth using Walleye as a search Jason,

E.g. http://www.littlemoose.com/fishing/wall ... -behavior/

Ian Crook wrote:

Worth using Walleye as a search Jason,

E.g. http://www.littlemoose.com/fishing/wall ... -behavior/

Ian Crook wrote:

One thing for sure is that they have periods of feeding/activity a d periods of relative inactivity, you can search an area with fish finder for hours and see nothing as they are all lying on the bottom, you will catch the odd fish and get mostly tail nips where a lure has been pulled or bounced right past their nose, but 3 hours later the same area could be littered with active fish, showning on the finder and smashing lures.

Air pressure increases water pressure, Newton's Third Law, all fish are less active as air and hence water pressure increases!!

Darker days will produce more bites than brighter days and as Kev says, they like a chop, this will again be due to light level, rough water having more reflection/refraction than calm water.

Kev Berry wrote:

Ian Crook wrote:

One thing for sure is that they have periods of feeding/activity a d periods of relative inactivity, you can search an area with fish finder for hours and see nothing as they are all lying on the bottom, you will catch the odd fish and get mostly tail nips where a lure has been pulled or bounced right past their nose, but 3 hours later the same area could be littered with active fish, showning on the finder and smashing lures.

Air pressure increases water pressure, Newton's Third Law, all fish are less active as air and hence water pressure increases!!

Darker days will produce more bites than brighter days and as Kev says, they like a chop, this will again be due to light level, rough water having more reflection/refraction than calm water.

Yes I agree they like a ruffled surface. But I meant chopped up pre bait ...
If you can get some in for a week or so before fishing it you get a better chance

Kev Berry wrote:

One of the pits I fish has good zander. They respond to a bit of choppy quite well.

Ian Crook wrote:

Kev Berry wrote:

Ian Crook wrote:

One thing for sure is that they have periods of feeding/activity a d periods of relative inactivity, you can search an area with fish finder for hours and see nothing as they are all lying on the bottom, you will catch the odd fish and get mostly tail nips where a lure has been pulled or bounced right past their nose, but 3 hours later the same area could be littered with active fish, showning on the finder and smashing lures.

Air pressure increases water pressure, Newton's Third Law, all fish are less active as air and hence water pressure increases!!

Darker days will produce more bites than brighter days and as Kev says, they like a chop, this will again be due to light level, rough water having more reflection/refraction than calm water.

Yes I agree they like a ruffled surface. But I meant chopped up pre bait ...
If you can get some in for a week or so before fishing it you get a better chance

BAIT!!!! BAIT!!! That's just cheating

Kev Berry wrote:

Ian Crook wrote:

Kev Berry wrote:

Ian Crook wrote:

One thing for sure is that they have periods of feeding/activity a d periods of relative inactivity, you can search an area with fish finder for hours and see nothing as they are all lying on the bottom, you will catch the odd fish and get mostly tail nips where a lure has been pulled or bounced right past their nose, but 3 hours later the same area could be littered with active fish, showning on the finder and smashing lures.

Air pressure increases water pressure, Newton's Third Law, all fish are less active as air and hence water pressure increases!!

Darker days will produce more bites than brighter days and as Kev says, they like a chop, this will again be due to light level, rough water having more reflection/refraction than calm water.

Yes I agree they like a ruffled surface. But I meant chopped up pre bait ...
If you can get some in for a week or so before fishing it you get a better chance

BAIT!!!! BAIT!!! That's just cheating

sez who

cookiesdaughtersdad wrote:

I think many anglers don't give enough importance to sound and movement underwater, sound travels over 4 times faster in water so any animal living in water would be wise to use it.
By the fact that zander have a light reflecting membrane in their eyes ( tapetum lucidum) shows they are a fish that has evolved for living in dark and turbid waters, but when the light is gone, those highly sensitive eyes are useless leaving them just "smell" and sound.
Smell is an accurate way of detecting prey or predators and the simple fact that freshwater fish have to wee a lot is something a fish like the zander knows too well and I'm sure baits sented with fish wee would catch, but smell can only work through diffusion of through the movement of water such as flow or undertow.
With sound and vibration, it can be detected at all times from up stream, at night or from the other side of a weed bed, it many ways it would be the prefered form of detecting your surroundings in water.
Fish detect the the movement of water over a short distance using their lateral line and over a larger distance detecting sound with their inner ear and as zander are a rather derived form of fish, they are very good at it.
The have a little trick up their sleeves, just like a modern submarine that operates in silent mode so that they are not detected, the zanders rough slimeless scales seams at 1st not to be particularly hydrodynamic but they are. They work in a similar way to a sharks scales in that a tiny vortex of water is created behind the trailing edge of each scale, all these tiny bubbles allow the main flow of water to ride over them, reducing drag remarkably and so allowing the zander to "run quiet", the relatively large scales work better at slow speeds so the zander has less interference to listen through and is also harder to detect by its prey.
The prey know this all to well, cyprinids will form a big part of their diet, the cyprinids have evolved a unique way of detecting sound in the fishy world, they run their swim bladder at a high pressure so that it acts as a resonating chamber, passing sound waves to the inner ear, this adaptatiuon is partly responsible for the families success.
Other species such as perch and rough all have the same adaptations as the zander so will equally be listening out.
Its like there's a war game going on under their in this world of fish eats fish.
I remember Rob saying how he liked to to a livebait constantly "nodding" his rod, you can see why
There a very old saying and thats an angler should "know thy quarry"

Cheers Alan

cookiesdaughtersdad wrote:

By the fact that zander have a light reflecting membrane in their eyes ( tapetum lucidum) shows they are a fish that has evolved for living in dark and turbid waters, but when the light is gone, those highly sensitive eyes are useless leaving them just "smell" and sound.

Thats interesting.

The have a little trick up their sleeves, just like a modern submarine that operates in silent mode so that they are not detected, the zanders rough slimeless scales seams at 1st not to be particularly hydrodynamic but they are. They work in a similar way to a sharks scales in that a tiny vortex of water is created behind the trailing edge of each scale, all these tiny bubbles allow the main flow of water to ride over them, reducing drag remarkably and so allowing the zander to "run quiet", the relatively large scales work better at slow speeds so the zander has less interference to listen through and is also harder to detect by its prey.

Love that.



Cheers Alan

cookiesdaughtersdad wrote:

I think many anglers don't give enough importance to sound and movement underwater, sound travels over 4 times faster in water so any animal living in water would be wise to use it.
By the fact that zander have a light reflecting membrane in their eyes ( tapetum lucidum) shows they are a fish that has evolved for living in dark and turbid waters, but when the light is gone, those highly sensitive eyes are useless leaving them just "smell" and sound.
Smell is an accurate way of detecting prey or predators and the simple fact that freshwater fish have to wee a lot is something a fish like the zander knows too well and I'm sure baits sented with fish wee would catch, but smell can only work through diffusion of through the movement of water such as flow or undertow.
With sound and vibration, it can be detected at all times from up stream, at night or from the other side of a weed bed, it many ways it would be the prefered form of detecting your surroundings in water.
Fish detect the the movement of water over a short distance using their lateral line and over a larger distance detecting sound with their inner ear and as zander are a rather derived form of fish, they are very good at it.
The have a little trick up their sleeves, just like a modern submarine that operates in silent mode so that they are not detected, the zanders rough slimeless scales seams at 1st not to be particularly hydrodynamic but they are. They work in a similar way to a sharks scales in that a tiny vortex of water is created behind the trailing edge of each scale, all these tiny bubbles allow the main flow of water to ride over them, reducing drag remarkably and so allowing the zander to "run quiet", the relatively large scales work better at slow speeds so the zander has less interference to listen through and is also harder to detect by its prey.
The prey know this all to well, cyprinids will form a big part of their diet, the cyprinids have evolved a unique way of detecting sound in the fishy world, they run their swim bladder at a high pressure so that it acts as a resonating chamber, passing sound waves to the inner ear, this adaptatiuon is partly responsible for the families success.
Other species such as perch and rough all have the same adaptations as the zander so will equally be listening out.
Its like there's a war game going on under their in this world of fish eats fish.
I remember Rob saying how he liked to to a livebait constantly "nodding" his rod, you can see why
There a very old saying and thats an angler should "know thy quarry"

Cheers Alan

cookiesdaughtersdad wrote:

I think many anglers don't give enough importance to sound and movement underwater, sound travels over 4 times faster in water so any animal living in water would be wise to use it.
By the fact that zander have a light reflecting membrane in their eyes ( tapetum lucidum) shows they are a fish that has evolved for living in dark and turbid waters, but when the light is gone, those highly sensitive eyes are useless leaving them just "smell" and sound.
Smell is an accurate way of detecting prey or predators and the simple fact that freshwater fish have to wee a lot is something a fish like the zander knows too well and I'm sure baits sented with fish wee would catch, but smell can only work through diffusion of through the movement of water such as flow or undertow.
With sound and vibration, it can be detected at all times from up stream, at night or from the other side of a weed bed, it many ways it would be the prefered form of detecting your surroundings in water.
Fish detect the the movement of water over a short distance using their lateral line and over a larger distance detecting sound with their inner ear and as zander are a rather derived form of fish, they are very good at it.
The have a little trick up their sleeves, just like a modern submarine that operates in silent mode so that they are not detected, the zanders rough slimeless scales seams at 1st not to be particularly hydrodynamic but they are. They work in a similar way to a sharks scales in that a tiny vortex of water is created behind the trailing edge of each scale, all these tiny bubbles allow the main flow of water to ride over them, reducing drag remarkably and so allowing the zander to "run quiet", the relatively large scales work better at slow speeds so the zander has less interference to listen through and is also harder to detect by its prey.
The prey know this all to well, cyprinids will form a big part of their diet, the cyprinids have evolved a unique way of detecting sound in the fishy world, they run their swim bladder at a high pressure so that it acts as a resonating chamber, passing sound waves to the inner ear, this adaptatiuon is partly responsible for the families success.
Other species such as perch and rough all have the same adaptations as the zander so will equally be listening out.
Its like there's a war game going on under their in this world of fish eats fish.
I remember Rob saying how he liked to to a livebait constantly "nodding" his rod, you can see why
There a very old saying and thats an angler should "know thy quarry"

Cheers Alan

dropped_run wrote:

do some reading on pelagic fishing Jason.

One of the thought processes is how they respond to particular frequencies and not to others- or to the same extent or in the same way.

almost all pelagic fishing you can find on youtube etc is done on the main outboard. Not a bow mount or rear leccy. There is an argument that the noise of the engine causes the fish to come off the bottom, but the same doesnt apply when using leccies which are of a different frequency or style of noise. There will never be a definite proof of this, but then as we know there is no definitive proof of whatever goes on which causes fish to act in a particular way.

Jason Skilton wrote:

cookiesdaughtersdad wrote:

I think many anglers don't give enough importance to sound and movement underwater, sound travels over 4 times faster in water so any animal living in water would be wise to use it.
By the fact that zander have a light reflecting membrane in their eyes ( tapetum lucidum) shows they are a fish that has evolved for living in dark and turbid waters, but when the light is gone, those highly sensitive eyes are useless leaving them just "smell" and sound.
Smell is an accurate way of detecting prey or predators and the simple fact that freshwater fish have to wee a lot is something a fish like the zander knows too well and I'm sure baits sented with fish wee would catch, but smell can only work through diffusion of through the movement of water such as flow or undertow.
With sound and vibration, it can be detected at all times from up stream, at night or from the other side of a weed bed, it many ways it would be the prefered form of detecting your surroundings in water.
Fish detect the the movement of water over a short distance using their lateral line and over a larger distance detecting sound with their inner ear and as zander are a rather derived form of fish, they are very good at it.
The have a little trick up their sleeves, just like a modern submarine that operates in silent mode so that they are not detected, the zanders rough slimeless scales seams at 1st not to be particularly hydrodynamic but they are. They work in a similar way to a sharks scales in that a tiny vortex of water is created behind the trailing edge of each scale, all these tiny bubbles allow the main flow of water to ride over them, reducing drag remarkably and so allowing the zander to "run quiet", the relatively large scales work better at slow speeds so the zander has less interference to listen through and is also harder to detect by its prey.
The prey know this all to well, cyprinids will form a big part of their diet, the cyprinids have evolved a unique way of detecting sound in the fishy world, they run their swim bladder at a high pressure so that it acts as a resonating chamber, passing sound waves to the inner ear, this adaptatiuon is partly responsible for the families success.
Other species such as perch and rough all have the same adaptations as the zander so will equally be listening out.
Its like there's a war game going on under their in this world of fish eats fish.
I remember Rob saying how he liked to to a livebait constantly "nodding" his rod, you can see why
There a very old saying and thats an angler should "know thy quarry"

Cheers Alan

Very interesting Al, what about frequency.......do you think they respond to changes in that?

cookiesdaughtersdad wrote:

Jason Skilton wrote:

cookiesdaughtersdad wrote:

I think many anglers don't give enough importance to sound and movement underwater, sound travels over 4 times faster in water so any animal living in water would be wise to use it.
By the fact that zander have a light reflecting membrane in their eyes ( tapetum lucidum) shows they are a fish that has evolved for living in dark and turbid waters, but when the light is gone, those highly sensitive eyes are useless leaving them just "smell" and sound.
Smell is an accurate way of detecting prey or predators and the simple fact that freshwater fish have to wee a lot is something a fish like the zander knows too well and I'm sure baits sented with fish wee would catch, but smell can only work through diffusion of through the movement of water such as flow or undertow.
With sound and vibration, it can be detected at all times from up stream, at night or from the other side of a weed bed, it many ways it would be the prefered form of detecting your surroundings in water.
Fish detect the the movement of water over a short distance using their lateral line and over a larger distance detecting sound with their inner ear and as zander are a rather derived form of fish, they are very good at it.
The have a little trick up their sleeves, just like a modern submarine that operates in silent mode so that they are not detected, the zanders rough slimeless scales seams at 1st not to be particularly hydrodynamic but they are. They work in a similar way to a sharks scales in that a tiny vortex of water is created behind the trailing edge of each scale, all these tiny bubbles allow the main flow of water to ride over them, reducing drag remarkably and so allowing the zander to "run quiet", the relatively large scales work better at slow speeds so the zander has less interference to listen through and is also harder to detect by its prey.
The prey know this all to well, cyprinids will form a big part of their diet, the cyprinids have evolved a unique way of detecting sound in the fishy world, they run their swim bladder at a high pressure so that it acts as a resonating chamber, passing sound waves to the inner ear, this adaptatiuon is partly responsible for the families success.
Other species such as perch and rough all have the same adaptations as the zander so will equally be listening out.
Its like there's a war game going on under their in this world of fish eats fish.
I remember Rob saying how he liked to to a livebait constantly "nodding" his rod, you can see why
There a very old saying and thats an angler should "know thy quarry"

Cheers Alan

Very interesting Al, what about frequency.......do you think they respond to changes in that?

Yes I do Jason, but I'm not telling

Cheers Alan

Emma Hamilton wrote:

dropped_run wrote:

do some reading on pelagic fishing Jason.

One of the thought processes is how they respond to particular frequencies and not to others- or to the same extent or in the same way.

almost all pelagic fishing you can find on youtube etc is done on the main outboard. Not a bow mount or rear leccy. There is an argument that the noise of the engine causes the fish to come off the bottom, but the same doesnt apply when using leccies which are of a different frequency or style of noise. There will never be a definite proof of this, but then as we know there is no definitive proof of whatever goes on which causes fish to act in a particular way.

Not many use bow mounts at sea mate to conclude any analysis on that??, they are too in/out of the water at wave thats one reason of a couple why folk don't use them much at sea.

rob

dropped_run wrote:

Emma Hamilton wrote:

dropped_run wrote:

do some reading on pelagic fishing Jason.

One of the thought processes is how they respond to particular frequencies and not to others- or to the same extent or in the same way.

almost all pelagic fishing you can find on youtube etc is done on the main outboard. Not a bow mount or rear leccy. There is an argument that the noise of the engine causes the fish to come off the bottom, but the same doesnt apply when using leccies which are of a different frequency or style of noise. There will never be a definite proof of this, but then as we know there is no definitive proof of whatever goes on which causes fish to act in a particular way.

Not many use bow mounts at sea mate to conclude any analysis on that??, they are too in/out of the water at wave thats one reason of a couple why folk don't use them much at sea.

rob

I meant what the Dutch and Swedish call pelagic sharpshooting Rob. Check it out on YouTube if you haven't seen it.
Not many zander at sea either