Massive brace of Roach

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Chris Hammond
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Re: Massive brace of Roach

Post by Chris Hammond »

Stewlaws wrote: Fri Jan 14 2022 19:09 -
Chris Hammond wrote: Fri Jan 14 2022 14:21 -
Stewlaws wrote: Fri Jan 14 2022 11:32 -
Some of the top roach anglers do not subscribe to carp waters ultimately growing on bigger fish with the high level of food going in. Naturally the environment has to be right for them to thrive, unlike mud pigs that hoover up and grow exponentially in these places, with the average carp angler more than happy to shovel in food by the bucket full.(with the sponsored anglers advocacy of more is better)
Some of the 'top' roach anglers will tell you just about any big Stillwater roach ain't even a roach Stew!

I dont think any other species see the sort of snobbery and envy that big roach attract.

At least one of the most prominent roach writers is an arrant bullsh1tter. 😉
Currently digesting a specimen angler by the name of Mark Wintle, be it YouTube/blog/written word, his gentle delivery and no nonsense approach has been drawn from over 45 plus years, absolutely zero ego and goes into subtle nuances readily, not a sponsor in sight and his delivery is almost horizontal...
Yes mate Mark knows his stuff. I was a member of a small online group that he was a member of a few years back. I keep meaning to buy his book. 👍
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Re: Massive brace of Roach

Post by suffolk si »

Mike J wrote: Wed Jan 12 2022 14:07 -
Very nice fish, thanks for posting.

To my mind a big Roach can only be considered worthy if they come from a river and are caught trotting.
A brace of 4's came from an English river a while ago and similar brace from a river elsewhere, neither were caught on float tackle, so perhaps its an impossibility.

.
A brace of four pound river roach😳any pictures Mike?
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Re: Massive brace of Roach

Post by squimp »

Stewlaws wrote: Fri Jan 14 2022 11:32 -
Some of the top roach anglers do not subscribe to carp waters ultimately growing on bigger fish with the high level of food going in. Naturally the environment has to be right for them to thrive, unlike mud pigs that hoover up and grow exponentially in these places, with the average carp angler more than happy to shovel in food by the bucket full.(with the sponsored anglers advocacy of more is better)
The pits round here nearly all ‘grow’ big roach when they are young. They are the first ‘big’ fish that appear in newly dug pits in this area. I’m fairly sure it is a water quality issue.

I run a small complex of old pits and during my tenure (30 years) they haven’t produced a roach over 2lb 5oz. Well before my time they produced 3+ fish and huge eels !! In those days it was a club water with general coarse fishing and no carp. So their weights were not carp food related.

Another local big roach water was at the time a trout fly fishery - so no bait going in there either.

These days nearly all the local established fisheries are carp dominated - so then the ‘extra’ bait will become an issue.
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Re: Massive brace of Roach

Post by Stewlaws »

squimp wrote: Sat Jan 15 2022 09:28 -
Stewlaws wrote: Fri Jan 14 2022 11:32 -
Some of the top roach anglers do not subscribe to carp waters ultimately growing on bigger fish with the high level of food going in. Naturally the environment has to be right for them to thrive, unlike mud pigs that hoover up and grow exponentially in these places, with the average carp angler more than happy to shovel in food by the bucket full.(with the sponsored anglers advocacy of more is better)
The pits round here nearly all ‘grow’ big roach when they are young. They are the first ‘big’ fish that appear in newly dug pits in this area. I’m fairly sure it is a water quality issue.

I run a small complex of old pits and during my tenure (30 years) they haven’t produced a roach over 2lb 5oz. Well before my time they produced 3+ fish and huge eels !! In those days it was a club water with general coarse fishing and no carp. So their weights were not carp food related.

Another local big roach water was at the time a trout fly fishery - so no bait going in there either.

These days nearly all the local established fisheries are carp dominated - so then the ‘extra’ bait will become an issue.
When you say 'extra bait becomes an issue' can you elaborate on what you mean?

Remember reading an article where a sponsored angler run in 80 kilo of bait prior to a line entering the water... Cannot be good for some smaller waters the amount of high protein baits going in.. Can it?!
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Re: Massive brace of Roach

Post by squimp »

An issue as in there is more free food available.

I’m trying to make a distinction between waters where the roach grow big naturally and those (mostly modern carp waters) where the anglers and sometimes even the fishery managers chuck in loads of ‘free’ food.

I used to fish another local pit for roach on float gear and had bags of fish to 30+ lb. They were up to 1.5 lb and growing like hell as it was a heavily baited big carp water. I reckoned loads would be over 2lb in a couple of years so I kept my ticket. Unfortunately the water got netted to make more room for carp ! Now it’s full of 40’s…..Another big lake run by the same people used to hold 3lb roach and 4lb rudd. These days despite it still being a great carp and tench water, there don’t appear to be any decent silver fish left.
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Mike J
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Re: Massive brace of Roach

Post by Mike J »

squimp wrote: Sat Jan 15 2022 11:31 -
An issue as in there is more free food available.

I’m trying to make a distinction between waters where the roach grow big naturally and those (mostly modern carp waters) where the anglers and sometimes even the fishery managers chuck in loads of ‘free’ food.

I used to fish another local pit for roach on float gear and had bags of fish to 30+ lb. They were up to 1.5 lb and growing like hell as it was a heavily baited big carp water. I reckoned loads would be over 2lb in a couple of years so I kept my ticket. Unfortunately the water got netted to make more room for carp ! Now it’s full of 40’s…..Another big lake run by the same people used to hold 3lb roach and 4lb rudd. These days despite it still being a great carp and tench water, there don’t appear to be any decent silver fish left.
The growth of roach and (some) other species in newly flooded gravel pits is well understood with most producing big 2s and some 3s in their early days. What mucks it all up is when rudd are introduced/appear because the species quickly hybridize and any claims of big fish should always be considered suspect thereafter.

On a water I managed I was picking up dead 16" fish. Pete Frost had told me Penny's cased record which he had seen, was 16 1/2" long so I showed him a couple, hydrids he said, confirmed when I had them examined.
Rudd roach hybrids are said to be present in the upper Avon, I was told they were from a stocking from a stillwater.

Any roach over 14" is almost certainly a 2, thats the time to get the Avons out.


suffolk si wrote: Fri Jan 14 2022 21:23 -
Mike J wrote: Wed Jan 12 2022 14:07 -
Very nice fish, thanks for posting.

To my mind a big Roach can only be considered worthy if they come from a river and are caught trotting.
A brace of 4's came from an English river a while ago and similar brace from a river elsewhere, neither were caught on float tackle, so perhaps its an impossibility.

.
A brace of four pound river roach😳any pictures Mike?
Caught and released. PM sent.

.
'No Man Ever Fishes The Same River Twice, .... For It Is Not The Same River, .... And He Is Not The Same Man' Heraclitus of Ephesus
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Mike J
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Re: Massive brace of Roach

Post by Mike J »

A plus 4 river roach.

.....
IMG_0301.JPG

From Holland

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'No Man Ever Fishes The Same River Twice, .... For It Is Not The Same River, .... And He Is Not The Same Man' Heraclitus of Ephesus
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Re: Massive brace of Roach

Post by Daniel »

Fabulous fish, but it's not for me, I just can't get excited about catching fish on self hooking rigs.
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Re: Massive brace of Roach

Post by cookiesdaughtersdad »

Just been looking through the top 50 lists for carp, bream, tench, roach and rudd to see how recent the majority of captures were relating to modern baiting techniques. The carp and bream lists were all fish caught since 2000, the tench had a few pre 2000, the roach was about 50/50 and the rudd was mainly fish caught before 2000. To me this implies that the modern trend of "filling it in" has had less of an impact on roach and rudd than other species.
I think a species has a maximum potential size and large quantities of bait gives more individuals the opportunity of going big even if the maximum potential is unchanged and so reflected in the rod caught record.
Other factors come into play such as rising temperatures and the history of some waters having a pedigree to produce big fish of some species and not others.
Either way round and no matter the method they are a cracking pair and a truly fabulous catch :thumbs:

Cheers, Alan
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Re: Massive brace of Roach

Post by John Milford »

I wonder if predation is a factor in roach becoming very big in some waters?

I can recall many waters in my youth that were teeming with roach, but you'd hardly ever see one over a pound.

There was a particular park lake where you could catch them all day. It seemed the further you cast, the bigger they were - only up to a pound though. There were no pike present.
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Re: Massive brace of Roach

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cookiesdaughtersdad wrote: Mon Jan 17 2022 09:25 -
Just been looking through the top 50 lists for carp, bream, tench, roach and rudd to see how recent the majority of captures were relating to modern baiting techniques. The carp and bream lists were all fish caught since 2000, the tench had a few pre 2000, the roach was about 50/50 and the rudd was mainly fish caught before 2000. To me this implies that the modern trend of "filling it in" has had less of an impact on roach and rudd than other species.
I think a species has a maximum potential size and large quantities of bait gives more individuals the opportunity of going big even if the maximum potential is unchanged and so reflected in the rod caught record.
Other factors come into play such as rising temperatures and the history of some waters having a pedigree to produce big fish of some species and not others.
Either way round and no matter the method they are a cracking pair and a truly fabulous catch :thumbs:

Cheers, Alan
I'm not sure you're not comparing apples with pears a bit tbh Al. I dont think because there are 'natural' waters with a track record for big roach that doesnt mean that heavily fished waters dont grow big more easily, or that the numbers of specimens dont outweigh those in waters that see no anglers bait.

I think it's pretty much a given that fish species generally ( And their subsequent record weights.) have grown bigger since the advent of high protein baits in angling.
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Re: Massive brace of Roach

Post by Mike J »

John Milford wrote: Mon Jan 17 2022 12:04 -
I wonder if predation is a factor in roach becoming very big in some waters?

I can recall many waters in my youth that were teeming with roach, but you'd hardly ever see one over a pound.

There was a particular park lake where you could catch them all day. It seemed the further you cast, the bigger they were - only up to a pound though. There were no pike present.

The problem here is Cormorants, they have simply decimated the Hampshire Avon roach population.
The swims that produced big 2s and 3s to many anglers years ago are devoid of roach and if you catch one elsewhere its a 2-3" fish.

Im not a bad angler but in the past 20years I have caught 2 roach over 4" long, in that time I have seen many many hundreds of Cormorants fishing in or flying along the river and the biggest r"oach I have seen was going down a Cormorants gullet.
'No Man Ever Fishes The Same River Twice, .... For It Is Not The Same River, .... And He Is Not The Same Man' Heraclitus of Ephesus
Chris Hammond
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Re: Massive brace of Roach

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Mike J wrote: Tue Jan 18 2022 13:11 -
John Milford wrote: Mon Jan 17 2022 12:04 -
I wonder if predation is a factor in roach becoming very big in some waters?

I can recall many waters in my youth that were teeming with roach, but you'd hardly ever see one over a pound.

There was a particular park lake where you could catch them all day. It seemed the further you cast, the bigger they were - only up to a pound though. There were no pike present.

The problem here is Cormorants, they have simply decimated the Hampshire Avon roach population.
The swims that produced big 2s and 3s to many anglers years ago are devoid of roach and if you catch one elsewhere its a 2-3" fish.

Im not a bad angler but in the past 20years I have caught 2 roach over 4" long, in that time I have seen many many hundreds of Cormorants fishing in or flying along the river and the biggest roach I have seen was going down a Cormorants gullet.
I thought there had been great strides in the improvement of recruitment by the roach action group Mike? I know High Miles has been involved in it to some extent and Trefor West I think. (Cant recall the name of the body at the mo)

Edit: Trevor Harrop not West. 😚
Last edited by Chris Hammond on Tue Jan 18 2022 14:37, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Massive brace of Roach

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cookiesdaughtersdad
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Re: Massive brace of Roach

Post by cookiesdaughtersdad »

Chris Hammond wrote: Mon Jan 17 2022 18:49 -
cookiesdaughtersdad wrote: Mon Jan 17 2022 09:25 -
Just been looking through the top 50 lists for carp, bream, tench, roach and rudd to see how recent the majority of captures were relating to modern baiting techniques. The carp and bream lists were all fish caught since 2000, the tench had a few pre 2000, the roach was about 50/50 and the rudd was mainly fish caught before 2000. To me this implies that the modern trend of "filling it in" has had less of an impact on roach and rudd than other species.
I think a species has a maximum potential size and large quantities of bait gives more individuals the opportunity of going big even if the maximum potential is unchanged and so reflected in the rod caught record.
Other factors come into play such as rising temperatures and the history of some waters having a pedigree to produce big fish of some species and not others.
Either way round and no matter the method they are a cracking pair and a truly fabulous catch :thumbs:

Cheers, Alan
I'm not sure you're not comparing apples with pears a bit tbh Al. I dont think because there are 'natural' waters with a track record for big roach that doesnt mean that heavily fished waters dont grow big more easily, or that the numbers of specimens dont outweigh those in waters that see no anglers bait.

I think it's pretty much a given that fish species generally ( And their subsequent record weights.) have grown bigger since the advent of high protein baits in angling.
I dont think I mentioned natural waters specifically ,Chris just waters with a pedigree for producing big fish.
That pedigree will be created from non bait factors.
Food availability will always be top of the list when factoring the growth rates of fish, be that availability coming from low stock numbers and competition, exceptional naturals such as the shrimp in Grafham or large quantities of bait but the amount of bait going in will usually be a supplement to their diet rather than replacing it particularly so on large waters. This suppliant will as a rule create more big fish (not necessarily exceptional) as you say but not more big fish of all specifies in all waters showing its not all about the bait.

Cheers, Alan
"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity" Seneca, some Roman chap.
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