course fish in game rivers

[ludwig]

I grew up fishing in small rivers, brooks and canals of Oxfordshire and was very familiar with the fish in those areas. I now live in West wales where the rivers are famous for their migratory salmon and Sewin. The estuary has mullet and dabs and the like. However noone has been able to explain to me why it is that there appear to be no coarse fish (chub, roach and the like) even in the upper waters of these rivers (way beyond the tidal range). Can anyone answer that question or maybe explain the range of coarse fish in similar rivers such as the severn and wye

[Mattjb]

I have wondered why that is as well. Are coarse fish there but in smaller numbers and not fished for ? My parents have a holiday home in west wales and I've often kayaked up the river teifi but have never seen any coarse fish only game.

[cookiesdaughtersdad]

Because of the speed of the river, the structure of the bottom and the temperature of the water game fish, Salmonids with be the dominant species.
The area you are interested in will be technically called the "trout" zone look here for a brief description as to the river zones https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_river_zonation
The zone below or downstream of the trout zone is the grayling zone, this are does hold course fish such as chub but some rivers literally go from the trout zone straight into the estuary such as the river Teifi that I fished in Wales.
If you were to stock some fish such as barbel, they would probably be ok but due to conditions they would probably never spawn and growth rates would be slow, similarly if I was to stock some trout were I live in the "bream zone", they would probably be ok but again they wouldn't thrive and produce subsequent generations.
What you get in some areas is a mixture of these zones where it may go from trout, to grayling to the barbel and then back to trout depending on water levels, bottom structure and temperature, these kind of rivers can support the most species such as the Severn that has the most diverse fish population of all rivers in the uk, this is due to the length of the river and the geography it flows over.
Some parts of the Severn you will get salmon swimming past carp and bream as they head upstream to

Cheers Alan

[Mike J]

Another reason can be their history of anglers killing fish, all fish, for either eating or because they made the mistake of taking a bait/lure/fly intended for a game species with the result that they were simply thrown up the bank to avoid it happening again.

In the past keepers on many southern rivers removed coarse fish and grayling in large numbers during the close season and just dumped them in pits. Pike were fished, speared, shot and snared and very few escaped the eye of an experienced keeper.
With better understanding of the financial advantages of having coarse fish including large pike in a game river high quality coarse fishing during the game season closure is now possible on many rivers.
Sadly many trout anglers still want to 'take a fish' with the result that regular stockings of Rainbow trout (with their fry eating habits) is practiced by many commercial fisheries, while on other sections of the same rivers non native trout are all removed and it will come as no surpise that these sections provide superb coarse fishing.

[cookiesdaughtersdad]

Another reason can be their history of anglers killing fish, all fish, for either eating or because they made the mistake of taking a bait/lure/fly intended for a game species with the result that they were simply thrown up the bank to avoid it happening again.

In the past keepers on many southern rivers removed coarse fish and grayling in large numbers during the close season and just dumped them in pits. Pike were fished, speared, shot and snared and very few escaped the eye of an experienced keeper.
With better understanding of the financial advantages of having coarse fish including large pike in a game river high quality coarse fishing during the game season closure is now possible on many rivers.
Sadly many trout anglers still want to 'take a fish' with the result that regular stockings of Rainbow trout (with their fry eating habits) is practiced by many commercial fisheries, while on other sections of the same rivers non native trout are all removed and it will come as no surpise that these sections provide superb coarse fishing.

And that
If a species is struggling to get a foot fin hold into an environment that doesn't particularly suit them, the work of such a river keeper and anglers killing fish will make it all but impossible!

Cheers Alan

[Luke]

I thought it was something to do with the last ice age and the general geography of the area? Wales was entirely covered by ice whilst a good portion of southern and eastern England was ice-free. After the ice retreated only diadromous fish species were able to repopulate the west-flowing Welsh rivers.

[ludwig]

Because of the speed of the river, the structure of the bottom and the temperature of the water game fish, Salmonids with be the dominant species.
The area you are interested in will be technically called the "trout" zone look here for a brief description as to the river zones https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_river_zonation
The zone below or downstream of the trout zone is the grayling zone, this are does hold course fish such as chub but some rivers literally go from the trout zone straight into the estuary such as the river Teifi that I fished in Wales.
If you were to stock some fish such as barbel, they would probably be ok but due to conditions they would probably never spawn and growth rates would be slow, similarly if I was to stock some trout were I live in the "bream zone", they would probably be ok but again they wouldn't thrive and produce subsequent generations.
What you get in some areas is a mixture of these zones where it may go from trout, to grayling to the barbel and then back to trout depending on water levels, bottom structure and temperature, these kind of rivers can support the most species such as the Severn that has the most diverse fish population of all rivers in the uk, this is due to the length of the river and the geography it flows over.
Some parts of the Severn you will get salmon swimming past carp and bream as they head upstream to

Cheers Alan

Thank you so much for that I have been wondering about it for ages. I can't believe that I spelt coarse incorrectly though

[Vole]

There's also the chemistry of the underlying geology to consider, Wales,most of Scotland and the Devon /Cornwall peninsula are mostly made of acidic rocks like granite and sandstone, so the rivers are nutrient-poor - "oligotrophic".
This suits migratory fish just fine, they get to spawn in a great rush of fish up rivers too poor to maintain a standing population of predators. Their young scratch a meagre living until they are big enough to go to sea, whereupon they cram the weight on in a hurry and repeat the process. A very successful strategy, buggerable-up only by humans who think they know better than Mother Nature and their gods of choice.

[cookiesdaughtersdad]

I thought it was something to do with the last ice age and the general geography of the area? Wales was entirely covered by ice whilst a good portion of southern and eastern England was ice-free. After the ice retreated only diadromous fish species were able to repopulate the west-flowing Welsh rivers.

And that
That is also quite right and for example, rivers that flow south and east tend to have natural populations of course fish as they were originally part of the Rhine system until the land bridge was flooded as the ice retreated.
All areas that were covered with the ice could only naturally be populated initially via the sea.
Most of the species in Rivers such as the Severn have been introduced since the ice retreated, some of them naturally and some of them by man.

There's also the chemistry of the underlying geology to consider, Wales,most of Scotland and the Devon /Cornwall peninsula are mostly made of acidic rocks like granite and sandstone, so the rivers are nutrient-poor - "oligotrophic".
This suits migratory fish just fine, they get to spawn in a great rush of fish up rivers too poor to maintain a standing population of predators. Their young scratch a meagre living until they are big enough to go to sea, whereupon they cram the weight on in a hurry and repeat the process. A very successful strategy, buggerable-up only by humans who think they know better than Mother Nature and their gods of choice.

And that and that



So in answer to ludwigs question, all of the above!

Cheers Alan

[SamG]

Because of the speed of the river, the structure of the bottom and the temperature of the water game fish, Salmonids with be the dominant species.
The area you are interested in will be technically called the "trout" zone look here for a brief description as to the river zones https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_river_zonation
The zone below or downstream of the trout zone is the grayling zone, this are does hold course fish such as chub but some rivers literally go from the trout zone straight into the estuary such as the river Teifi that I fished in Wales.
If you were to stock some fish such as barbel, they would probably be ok but due to conditions they would probably never spawn and growth rates would be slow, similarly if I was to stock some trout were I live in the "bream zone", they would probably be ok but again they wouldn't thrive and produce subsequent generations.
What you get in some areas is a mixture of these zones where it may go from trout, to grayling to the barbel and then back to trout depending on water levels, bottom structure and temperature, these kind of rivers can support the most species such as the Severn that has the most diverse fish population of all rivers in the uk, this is due to the length of the river and the geography it flows over.
Some parts of the Severn you will get salmon swimming past carp and bream as they head upstream to

Cheers Alan

An old one, but a good one. Great post.

[Kev Berry]

There's also the chemistry of the underlying geology to consider, Wales,most of Scotland and the Devon /Cornwall peninsula are mostly made of acidic rocks like granite and sandstone, so the rivers are nutrient-poor - "oligotrophic".
This suits migratory fish just fine, they get to spawn in a great rush of fish up rivers too poor to maintain a standing population of predators. Their young scratch a meagre living until they are big enough to go to sea, whereupon they cram the weight on in a hurry and repeat the process. A very successful strategy, buggerable-up only by humans who think they know better than Mother Nature and their gods of choice.

Most of Nottinghamshire sits on the Bunter sandstone----the water tends to be ph neutral (7)

[Vole]

I'm not familiar with the Trent system, but doesn't it cross, at some point, the long strip of chalk/limestone that runs from theSalisbury plain, via the Cotswolds, to the Yorkshire/Lincolnshire wolds? That ought to buffer its pH, I'd have thought.

[Stewlaws]

A few spots you alluded to their Vole has some cracking fishing .... especially in view of the spire!