Otter trap??

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Re: Otter trap??

Post by davelumb » Mon Apr 11 2016 15:54

cookiesdaughtersdad wrote:
...they only thought whether they could reintroduce otters, rather than if they should :roll:
Otters weren't extinct in the UK. Habitat improvement would have seen otters spread and recolonise where it suited them. That was all the help they needed. Is anyone releasing polecats? Because they're spreading too.

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Re: Otter trap??

Post by Duncan Holmes » Mon Apr 11 2016 17:18

cookiesdaughtersdad wrote:

I cant say strongly enough how important I think the eel is for our freshwater ecology, I actually think its the single most important species.
The vast majority of eels never enter fresh water but instead remain in the rich feeding areas of the estuaries, you know where the cormorant used to live.
It is said that otters feed on the whats available and of course nutritional, to which the eel used to fit both parts perfectly.
In old angling books it was said that the otter used to target course fish more often in the winter as the eels had buried themselves in the mud, nowadays the eels are simply not there in anywhere near the numbers, just 5 % of what there used to be.


Cheers Alan
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You might be interested in this project that a colleague of mine is involved with http://www.norfolkriverstrust.org/eels-project/
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Re: Otter trap??

Post by Duncan Holmes » Mon Apr 11 2016 17:25

davelumb wrote:
cookiesdaughtersdad wrote:
...they only thought whether they could reintroduce otters, rather than if they should :roll:
Otters weren't extinct in the UK. Habitat improvement would have seen otters spread and recolonise where it suited them. That was all the help they needed. Is anyone releasing polecats? Because they're spreading too.
Interestingly I knew of two holts on the broads that had been populated for many years, long before the introductions, yet both these areas are now otterless. Any ideas? :scratch:

I am convinced that the otters I used to see there are very different to the ones I regularly now see in Norfolk, the behaviour pattern is very different too?
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Re: Otter trap??

Post by davelumb » Mon Apr 11 2016 17:50

Duncan Holmes wrote:
Interestingly I knew of two holts on the broads that had been populated for many years, long before the introductions, yet both these areas are now otterless. Any ideas? :scratch:
That's strange.

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Re: Otter trap??

Post by philbrown » Mon Apr 11 2016 18:22

The middle level commission have built over 60 artificial otter holts across the 120 miles of waterway that they are responsible for. Fortunately with the Gill netting that happens I wouldn't be surprised that the netsmen get an extra surprise from time to time.....

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Re: Otter trap??

Post by AndyFrost » Mon Apr 11 2016 18:30

cookiesdaughtersdad wrote:
AndyFrost wrote:
davelumb wrote:
cookiesdaughtersdad wrote:
It is difficult to estimate otter numbers, but I would say we have more now than we have had in hundreds of years :wink:
I often get quite, shall we say frustrated, to the attitude that many anglers have towards otters, they are blinkered towards the quarry they wish to catch and are often ignorant to the environment and other species that exist within it, not that dissimilar in attitude to the IFIs on pike :roll:
Why do you think anglers get angry at otters when there are not only more about than in living memory but more than in hundreds of years? The fact is the world has changed and otter numbers as they stand are not supportable. Still, when they reintroduce the lynx that might change... :laughs:

I'm sorry, Googlalan, but this current mania among the conservation totalitarians for returning the wildlife populations back to how they were thousands of years ago is founded on stupidity. The only way it can work is to reduce the human populations to the levels they were at whatever point in history is selected as Year One.

Otters are lovely. There are just too many of them. And they aren't restricting their diet to fish. I hear there are feint rays of hope for anglers. Early days though.
Very well said , aided only by common sense , and not diatribe gleaned from Google.

Andy :thumbs:
You are now p*****g me of Andy, how I form my opinion comes from far more than google and I very much doubt you would show me such disrespect face to face :wink:

Cheers Alan
Google or whatever , it's ill informed either way , yet again your term REINTRODUCTION is just one of your errors.

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Re: Otter trap??

Post by cookiesdaughtersdad » Mon Apr 11 2016 19:56

AndyFrost wrote:
cookiesdaughtersdad wrote:
AndyFrost wrote:
davelumb wrote:
cookiesdaughtersdad wrote:
It is difficult to estimate otter numbers, but I would say we have more now than we have had in hundreds of years :wink:
I often get quite, shall we say frustrated, to the attitude that many anglers have towards otters, they are blinkered towards the quarry they wish to catch and are often ignorant to the environment and other species that exist within it, not that dissimilar in attitude to the IFIs on pike :roll:
Why do you think anglers get angry at otters when there are not only more about than in living memory but more than in hundreds of years? The fact is the world has changed and otter numbers as they stand are not supportable. Still, when they reintroduce the lynx that might change... :laughs:

I'm sorry, Googlalan, but this current mania among the conservation totalitarians for returning the wildlife populations back to how they were thousands of years ago is founded on stupidity. The only way it can work is to reduce the human populations to the levels they were at whatever point in history is selected as Year One.

Otters are lovely. There are just too many of them. And they aren't restricting their diet to fish. I hear there are feint rays of hope for anglers. Early days though.
Very well said , aided only by common sense , and not diatribe gleaned from Google.

Andy :thumbs:
You are now p*****g me of Andy, how I form my opinion comes from far more than google and I very much doubt you would show me such disrespect face to face :wink:

Cheers Alan
Google or whatever , it's ill informed either way , yet again your term REINTRODUCTION is just one of your errors.

Andy.
Everywhere, and I mean everywhere you look on google or whatever, including the people you have a personal contact with at the otter trust say that they have been reintroduced so the error is yours, have a read old chap http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/w ... tters.html and you could find a feck site more :wink:
But if splitting hair is your thing then carry on if that all your opinion runs to on the subject :wink:

Cheers Alan
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Re: Otter trap??

Post by AndyFrost » Mon Apr 11 2016 20:15

If you would have relied on Google back in your youth you would have been telling us all the Earth was flat :roll: :roll:
How many more times do you need to be told for any creature to be REINTRODUCED it has to be classed as extinct , which in the case of the Otter is clearly not true , the Lynx , yes.
I suppose being a bailiff gives you the right to be correct in EVERYTHING you post......God help us.

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Re: Otter trap??

Post by cookiesdaughtersdad » Mon Apr 11 2016 20:45

AndyFrost wrote:
If you would have relied on Google back in your youth you would have been telling us all the Earth was flat :roll: :roll:
How many more times do you need to be told for any creature to be REINTRODUCED it has to be classed as extinct , which in the case of the Otter is clearly not true , the Lynx , yes.
I suppose being a bailiff gives you the right to be correct in EVERYTHING you post......God help us.

Andy.
No it doesn't and thanks google :thumbs:

"Species reintroduction is the deliberate release of a species into the wild, from captivity or other areas where the animal survives. A species that needs reintroduction is usually one whose existence has become threatened or endangered in the wild. However, reintroduction of a species can also be for pest control."


"An introduced species (also known as an exotic species) is an organism that is not native to the place or area where it is considered introduced and instead has been accidentally or deliberately transported to the new location by human activity."

There are so many references to the otters "reintroduction" to parts of the Uk that I believe the term to be correct, if you dont then thats fine, we can disagree on this but I am in good company.

No of course being bailiff has nothing to do with the validity on anything I post, all I ever try to do is stay polite while discussing things, putting my opinion across which I must say has changed on several things since being part of this forum :wink:

Cheers Alan
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Re: Otter trap??

Post by AndyFrost » Mon Apr 11 2016 21:36

As ever

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Re: Otter trap??

Post by cookiesdaughtersdad » Mon Apr 11 2016 21:58

AndyFrost wrote:
As ever

Andy.
Are they your final well thought out and considered words on the subject Andy?

Cheers Alan
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Re: Otter trap??

Post by AndyFrost » Tue Apr 12 2016 18:45

Alan , it's obvious we don't agree on this matter , all my observations are based on what I see , and have seen on just short of 60 yrs of country life , yours on the other hand are what you glean from Google.
Some of what I read on there is very accurate information , other stuff is utter diatribe , Chaff and calder (spelling) spring to mind.

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Re: Otter trap??

Post by cookiesdaughtersdad » Wed Apr 13 2016 07:22

AndyFrost wrote:
Alan , it's obvious we don't agree on this matter , all my observations are based on what I see , and have seen on just short of 60 yrs of country life , yours on the other hand are what you glean from Google.
Some of what I read on there is very accurate information , other stuff is utter diatribe , Chaff and calder (spelling) spring to mind.

Andy.
At least we agree on something Andy :laughs:
We are simply talking about whether the term "reintroduction" is correct in this case, I have used google to "help" state my case, you have simply dismissed the validity of my argument because I have used google to show that its not just my opinion, but that of the otter trust for example and even that the term is correct from the dictionary. The bases of your argument is rather than stating your own you simply try to rubbish anothers which is very poor show, chucking in the odd word such as diatribe to help https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid ... definition if you are unsure of the definition :wink:
How your 60 odd years living in the countryside props you argument up on this is unclear, for how can your observations have any bearing as to what is the correct term in this case. For that's all it is, terminology, not ecology or behaviour, just words.
I myself have lived in the countryside for nearly 50 years, I have fished for for most of that, and studied nature while fishing, birdwatching, golfing, working outdoors,dog walking, with the literally hundred of book I have owned, watched just about everything Attenborough and his contemporaries have ever produced, hand reared many birds, had hedgehogs, wild rodents, newts, frogs and toads and just about anything else I could get my hands on including the odd snake, had coarse fish in tanks as pets for approaching 40 years and with a bit of luck in the next few weeks, I shall be moving into a log cabin that sits on stilts, overhanging the Great ouse so I can immerse myself into it even more.
Most of the people who know me will often ask me as to things of the natural world, I am a bit of a geek when it comes to these sort of things.
Over the last few years I have found it easier to google some info and to double check some stuff, like the other day, I thought otters lived to about 6-8 years in the wild and was unsure how to spell Dieldrin (still am) 30 seconds later I had my answer thanks to google, I was right about the life expectancy but wrong with the spelling and saved my going upstairs and looking through books. I do this to not only get my facts right but also to jog my memory and so hopefully it sticks.
Google is simply another source of information for those who want it, its the most complete encyclopedia, including work and studies from people who have dedicated their life into particular fields. These people dont always agree and the opposing argument is always there, leaving the informed reader to make their own mind up.
But all the years I have lived worked and played in the countryside, and all the ways I have gained information about it and the ecology of all its inhabitants give my opinion absolutely no weight to the argument as to whether the term "reintroduction" is correct in the case of otters, so that is why I used google to show the the otter foundation and the dictionary for example do think that it is the correct term.
I do not wish to be rude, honest but if your opinion is simply made by your own experiences and observations in the countryside you will gain limited knowledge about it as I have found with many "country folk" who are ignorant to many things about the countryside they live in and the bigger, great wide world.
I have had a good old google and even with your 60 odd years of life experiences in the countryside, I can't find any reference to you as being the foremost authority on the natural world and its correct terminologies, but I was surprised not to find my name either :laughs:

How information is sourced and how opinion is made makes no difference to the enlightened :wink:

So thats it, I am done with you on this but look forward to finding something we can agree on in the future :thumbs:

Cheers Alan
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Re: Otter trap??

Post by davelumb » Wed Apr 13 2016 07:52

It's all quite simple to understand, without the need to use Google if you understand English. The prefix ''re' being the clue. But if you must use Google - http://www.dictionary.com/browse/re-

Reintroduce means to put something back that is no longer there. It does not mean put it somewhere it never was in the first place.

Therefore, otters can be reintroduced to a location they used to inhabit but are no longer present in, but they can't be reintroduced to somewhere they never lived before. In the latter case they will be introduced.

In the broad sense conservationists are reintroducing otters in their attempts to return populations to how they stood before the decline, however anglers fear they are also introducing them to previously unoccupied habitats and thereby causing the problems we see today.

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Re: Otter trap??

Post by AndyFrost » Wed Apr 13 2016 18:03

Absolutely spot on Dave , but I can't help but feel by posting that , you've just wasted 5mins of your life that you will never get back.

Andy
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Re: Otter trap??

Post by davelumb » Wed Apr 13 2016 18:23

Oh well. :laughs:

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Re: Otter trap??

Post by cookiesdaughtersdad » Wed Apr 13 2016 20:12

davelumb wrote:
It's all quite simple to understand, without the need to use Google if you understand English. The prefix ''re' being the clue. But if you must use Google - http://www.dictionary.com/browse/re-

Reintroduce means to put something back that is no longer there. It does not mean put it somewhere it never was in the first place.

Therefore, otters can be reintroduced to a location they used to inhabit but are no longer present in, but they can't be reintroduced to somewhere they never lived before. In the latter case they will be introduced.

In the broad sense conservationists are reintroducing otters in their attempts to return populations to how they stood before the decline, however anglers fear they are also introducing them to previously unoccupied habitats and thereby causing the problems we see today.
So by posting that Dave you must agree that otters have been reintroduced to many parts of the country :wink:

Cheers Alan
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Re: Otter trap??

Post by davelumb » Wed Apr 13 2016 20:31

But not reintroduced to the UK. :smile:

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Re: Otter trap??

Post by cookiesdaughtersdad » Wed Apr 13 2016 20:58

davelumb wrote:
But not reintroduced to the UK. :smile:
YES IT IS! So that means I, the otter foundation, the dictionary and just about everywhere you look including google or not disagree with you as well :laughs:
A species can still be present in an area, albeit in limited numbers and be topped up with reintroduced specimens.
I posted this previously ""Species reintroduction is the deliberate release of a species into the wild, from captivity or other areas where the animal survives. A species that needs reintroduction is usually one whose existence has become threatened or endangered in the wild. However, reintroduction of a species can also be for pest control."

Cheers Alan
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Re: Otter trap??

Post by davelumb » Wed Apr 13 2016 21:05

AndyFrost wrote:
Absolutely spot on Dave , but I can't help but feel by posting that , you've just wasted 5mins of your life that you will never get back.

Andy
Sigh...

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Re: Otter trap??

Post by pikerholic2 » Wed Apr 13 2016 21:18

This thread is like watching someone banging their head against a wall
:tea:
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Mr godfrey I post mostly drivel

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Re: Otter trap??

Post by AndyFrost » Wed Apr 13 2016 21:24

davelumb wrote:
AndyFrost wrote:
Absolutely spot on Dave , but I can't help but feel by posting that , you've just wasted 5mins of your life that you will never get back.

Andy
Sigh...
:roll: :roll: , you'll soon lose the will to live :laughs: :laughs:
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Re: Otter trap??

Post by AndyFrost » Wed Apr 13 2016 21:27

There aren't many about like Cookie........ I think it's time we reintroduced a few more.

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Re: Otter trap??

Post by cookiesdaughtersdad » Wed Apr 13 2016 21:30

pikerholic2 wrote:
This thread is like watching someone banging their head against a wall
:tea:
And ooh I have a headache :laughs:

Cheers Alan
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Re: Otter trap??

Post by AndyFrost » Wed Apr 13 2016 21:32

cookiesdaughtersdad wrote:
pikerholic2 wrote:
This thread is like watching someone banging their head against a wall
:tea:
And ooh I have a headache :laughs:

Cheers Alan
What all of it :shrug:

Andy.
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Re: Otter trap??

Post by davelumb » Wed Apr 13 2016 21:38

AndyFrost wrote:
davelumb wrote:
AndyFrost wrote:
Absolutely spot on Dave , but I can't help but feel by posting that , you've just wasted 5mins of your life that you will never get back.

Andy
Sigh...
:roll: :roll: , you'll soon lose the will to live :laughs: :laughs:
I just did. :knife:

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Re: Otter trap??

Post by cookiesdaughtersdad » Thu Apr 14 2016 07:22

AndyFrost wrote:
cookiesdaughtersdad wrote:
pikerholic2 wrote:
This thread is like watching someone banging their head against a wall
:tea:
And ooh I have a headache :laughs:

Cheers Alan
What all of it :shrug:

Andy.
:laughs:

So on one hand you have a rod builder and a chap whose opinion as to the correct terminology on this subject is based on his observations on rural Norfolk, and on the other hand you have, amongst others, the otter trust, the Environment agency, the Angling trust, Natural England and of course me, a builder :thumbs:

http://www.otterstop.co.uk/wp-content/u ... c-2012.pdf

Cheers Alan
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Re: Otter trap??

Post by Rhubarb » Thu Apr 14 2016 09:03

Otter holts do not really assist the sopread of otters. fresh waterways and an ample supply of food, together with reintroductions, helps the otter spread.
Many of the holts I have examined are a joke, just a couple of plastic pipes stuck into the ground. They're an expensive joke. Do they not realise that otter's prefer more natural settings? And, besides, otters lay up in cover more times than they do in a 'holt'. When they do use a holt it is often just a hollow under a root or a gap in a rock pile.
The problem I have is that these animals have been introduced in good numbers and they have caused alot of damage. Suddenly fishery owners have got to find 20, 30K to fence off their fishery and cannot do anything else to protect their fish. Why are all these 'nature' bodies obsessed with apex predators?
Otter numbers are only going to rise, so there's going to be a hell of a lot more news of them.
One fishery I control mink on is about 2 mile from the nearest river, in suburbia, and yet once a month an otter comes and killed at least one carp in the 4-7lb range, eats a mouthful and then leaves it.....

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Re: Otter trap??

Post by davelumb » Thu Apr 14 2016 09:41

Rhubarb wrote:
The problem I have is that these animals have been introduced in good numbers...
No. NO. NO!!!! They've been REintroduced. :boing:

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Re: Otter trap??

Post by Rhubarb » Thu Apr 14 2016 11:33

davelumb wrote:
Rhubarb wrote:
The problem I have is that these animals have been introduced in good numbers...
No. NO. NO!!!! They've been REintroduced. :boing:
I chose my words carefully.

Ok, where do you think the otters came from originally that started this mass breeding project?

I'll tell ya; they came from the highlands, on the coast where the density is the highest.

SO the otter today isn't your lowland otter, it is a Scottish otter that has spent many thousands of years evolving to fit the niche perfectly. Yes, I know they all share the same latin name, but they are, in my belief, a different 'type'.
Just like the red kites that hang like vultures upon every zephyr, they are not English red kites, but red kites from the continent.

Otters are here to stay, we'd best get used to them.

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