Pest control and a pie

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Kev Berry
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Re: Pest control and a pie

Post by Kev Berry » Sun Jul 31 2016 21:40

some time ago a big shoot gave out some statistics as to what happened to their birds

they made an allowance of 20% to be lost to road kill
and 5% lost to predators
seems like they want to start aiming the guns towards the road :laughs:

unbelievable that a license has been granted, and no doubt this Northumberland Keeper is very poor at adding up :veryevil:



back to magpies-----if they on the wanted list for eating pheasantsongbird chicks---why arnt sparrowhawks on it, they eat songbirds all year round not just in the nesting season (did you know sparrow hawks time their eggs to hatch as the blue t*t fledglings are leaving the nest? remarkable)

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Re: Pest control and a pie

Post by Kev Berry » Mon Aug 01 2016 11:15

nothing to do with magpies---but just look at how many offences concerning the killing of raptors there are---and specifically all to do with keepered shoots or pigeon fanciers. Dont forget these are only the cases that have been discovered.

its a wonder theres anything left in the countryside apart from whats classed as game

https://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordp ... incidents/

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Re: Pest control and a pie

Post by fenfisher55 » Mon Aug 01 2016 21:41

RSPB have revealed the number of predators killed on its reserves between April 2014 and August 2015 in order to protect ground nesting birds:-

Foxes 412 across 28 of its reserves
Carrion and hooded crows 297 across 6 of its reserves
RSPB wardens are trained in the use of larssen traps but have not declared the number of magpies!!!!! too many ?!?!

As an overall point of interest they also killed the following in order to restore woodland, heathland and reedbed:-
523 Red deer on eight reserves
427 Roe deer on eight reserves
128 Sika on 2 reserves
23 Fallow deer on 4 reserves
47 Muntjac on 3 reserves

Source of information " The Conservationists Dilemma" by RSPB Conservation Officer Martin Harper

"its a wonder theres anything left in the countryside apart from whats classed as game" !!!!!!

cookiesdaughtersdad
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Re: Pest control and a pie

Post by cookiesdaughtersdad » Tue Aug 02 2016 05:49

Kev Berry wrote:
some time ago a big shoot gave out some statistics as to what happened to their birds

they made an allowance of 20% to be lost to road kill
and 5% lost to predators
seems like they want to start aiming the guns towards the road :laughs:

unbelievable that a license has been granted, and no doubt this Northumberland Keeper is very poor at adding up :veryevil:



back to magpies-----if they on the wanted list for eating pheasantsongbird chicks---why arnt sparrowhawks on it, they eat songbirds all year round not just in the nesting season (did you know sparrow hawks time their eggs to hatch as the blue t*t fledglings are leaving the nest? remarkable)
Kev, sparrowhawks have more of a "wow" factor than magpies as do buzzards and kites and so people's personal opinions towards the culling of animals will not always be logical. In this case they are only fecking magpies :roll:

Cheers Alan
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Re: Pest control and a pie

Post by cookiesdaughtersdad » Tue Aug 02 2016 06:05

SHAUN B wrote:
:devil: little b******s and WANT shooting !!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VW9_AxIwlQo
Like these feckers killing our fish https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nA3LtXnNIto, its just nature, there isnt a single species on the planet that should be hated, controled at times possibley or protected, but hated, never :wink:

Watching the osprey film above shows the bird carrying the large trout head 1st, more aerodynamic that way and just before it takes the flounder, the way it put its feet in front of its face to maximise the depth of its dive. Also I have never seen osprey take lots of little fish like that before :eek:

Cheers Alan
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Re: Pest control and a pie

Post by Kev Berry » Tue Aug 02 2016 09:46

fenfisher55 wrote:
RSPB have revealed the number of predators killed on its reserves between April 2014 and August 2015 in order to protect ground nesting birds:-

Foxes 412 across 28 of its reserves
Carrion and hooded crows 297 across 6 of its reserves
RSPB wardens are trained in the use of larssen traps but have not declared the number of magpies!!!!! too many ?!?!

As an overall point of interest they also killed the following in order to restore woodland, heathland and reedbed:-
523 Red deer on eight reserves
427 Roe deer on eight reserves
128 Sika on 2 reserves
23 Fallow deer on 4 reserves
47 Muntjac on 3 reserves


Source of information " The Conservationists Dilemma" by RSPB Conservation Officer Martin Harper

"its a wonder theres anything left in the countryside apart from whats classed as game" !!!!!!
isn't that called deer management----widely accepted by everyone that having no predators there is a need to keep the (vast and growing) numbers in check, the damage they are doing is ruining the countryside, forests etc-----see what has happened in Yellowstone since they re introduced the wolves to control the deer, totally changed the place.
2 of the above deer species are non native---wonder who introduced those?

do the reserves with fox/corvid control also have sheep grazing or Grouse shooting ?

been a lot of naughty things going on in some reserves, National Trust has withdrawn a lease on a grouse shoot on one of their reserves---the shoot just couldn't leave the raptors alone.
Just look through the offences against raptors in the link I put , practically every single one involved a shoot/estate/gamekeeper.

Not up to them to decide what lives or dies, I would rather see raptors than pheasants or grouse any day

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Re: Pest control and a pie

Post by davelumb » Tue Aug 02 2016 09:56

Kev Berry wrote:
I would rather see raptors than pheasants or grouse any day
The pheasants and grouse wouldn't. :grin:

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Re: Pest control and a pie

Post by fenfisher55 » Tue Aug 02 2016 23:08

isn't that called deer management-Well spotted!!---widely accepted by everyone that having no predators there is a need to keep the (vast and growing) numbers in check, the damage they are doing is ruining the countryside, forests etc-----see what has happened in Yellowstone since they re introduced the wolves to control the deer, totally changed the place.Not up to them / you to decide what lives or dies, this seems to be a selective argument
2 of the above deer species are non native---wonder who introduced those?Bad luck, none were for sporting purposes, they were private zoos in the 1800s, just like the little owl etc, kill those to??

do the reserves with fox/corvid control also have sheep grazing or Grouse shooting ?showing your colours there, they are RSPB reserves from moor to vale and peak to fen, not forgetting marshes

been a lot of naughty things going on in some reserves, National Trust has withdrawn a lease on a grouse shoot on one of their reserves---the shoot just couldn't leave the raptors alone. I think a lot of people would put the RSPB into this bracket....but just a bit more selective on their naughty things
Just look through the offences against raptors in the link I put , practically every single one involved a shoot/estate/gamekeeper.

Not up to them to decide what lives or dies, I would rather see raptors than pheasants or grouse any day -I live overlooking land managed by Wildfowlers and the RSPB. I don't see too many partridges or pheasants nowadays, see buzzards and kites everyday, harriers and sparrowhawks are common, don't see too many kestrels or magpies funnily enough

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Re: Pest control and a pie

Post by cookiesdaughtersdad » Wed Aug 03 2016 07:19

fenfisher55 wrote:
isn't that called deer management-Well spotted!!---widely accepted by everyone that having no predators there is a need to keep the (vast and growing) numbers in check, the damage they are doing is ruining the countryside, forests etc-----see what has happened in Yellowstone since they re introduced the wolves to control the deer, totally changed the place.Not up to them / you to decide what lives or dies, this seems to be a selective argumentUnfortunately the vast majority of our countryside is not natural and so nearlly species have been affected by mans influence and so I think we are morally bound to address the imbalance we have created,I personally would do a very good job in deciding what lives or dies as my only agenda is whats good for the ecology we share with all species
2 of the above deer species are non native---wonder who introduced those?Bad luck, none were for sporting purposes, they were private zoos in the 1800s, just like the little owl etc, kill those to??What has how a species being introduced go to do with it, they are causing an imbalance and so affecting native species

do the reserves with fox/corvid control also have sheep grazing or Grouse shooting ?showing your colours there, they are RSPB reserves from moor to vale and peak to fen, not forgetting marshesI take it you shoot or are a gamekeeper

been a lot of naughty things going on in some reserves, National Trust has withdrawn a lease on a grouse shoot on one of their reserves---the shoot just couldn't leave the raptors alone. I think a lot of people would put the RSPB into this bracket....but just a bit more selective on their naughty thingsShoots act though ignorance and the RSPB act through personal agenda or being species biased
Just look through the offences against raptors in the link I put , practically every single one involved a shoot/estate/gamekeeper.

Not up to them to decide what lives or dies, I would rather see raptors than pheasants or grouse any day -I live overlooking land managed by Wildfowlers and the RSPB. I don't see too many partridges or pheasants nowadays, see buzzards and kites everyday, harriers and sparrowhawks are common, don't see too many kestrels or magpies funnily enough
Birds that regularly take to the sky are easy to sea, ones that live in the crops aren't so

I find it very annoying/sad at just how selfish people can be when it comes to the species they want to thrive within the ecology we share, the people that took it upon themselves to reintroduce otters couldn't see past their cute fury faces and only thought if they "could" rather than if they "should".
Quite clearly the otter should be swimming our waterways but as so often said before, there should have been a little more thought to it than just lifting the lid on some cages :wink:

Cheers Alan
"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity" Seneca, some Roman chap.

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Re: Pest control and a pie

Post by davelumb » Wed Aug 03 2016 08:25

cookiesdaughtersdad wrote:
I find it very annoying/sad at just how selfish people can be when it comes to the species they want to thrive within the ecology we share.....
As you intimate, that applies as much to 'conservationists' (e.g. the otter) as it does to anglers and shooters.

Nature reserves are never left to their own devices, they are as heavily managed as any sporting shoot. There is no way that we can ever redress the imbalance you mention because there is no way to determine a starting point to aim for. Before the industrial revolution and the exodus of people from the countryside? Before the Romans arrived? Immediately after the ice retreated and humans recolonised these islands? Can't be done.

All that can be done, IMO, is try to prevent the extinction of what we have right now. But even that is fraught with problems. How do you define what are threatened species?

Hen harriers are currently flavour of the month because they are being persecuted in England. But get on Google and you'll see that they are not globally threatened, and are doing OK elsewhere in the UK. They are being used by a well motivated and PR savvy group as a stick to beat the shooting fraternity with. These fundamentalist would like to see grouse shooting banned, and pheasants eradicated. They have a very strange agenda, and are a dangerous crowd. Mark Avery and his followers are the sort of people who would turn on angling if they managed to get shooting banned.

Then you have the likes of Packham who is a figurehead for the hen harrier campaign who has said that we should let the giant panda go extinct because it is just a flagship species and ultimately doomed, and we should save other less publicised species. Total hypocrisy.

Dangerous people IMO.

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Re: Pest control and a pie

Post by cookiesdaughtersdad » Wed Aug 03 2016 18:08

davelumb wrote:
cookiesdaughtersdad wrote:
I find it very annoying/sad at just how selfish people can be when it comes to the species they want to thrive within the ecology we share.....
As you intimate, that applies as much to 'conservationists' (e.g. the otter) as it does to anglers and shooters.

Nature reserves are never left to their own devices, they are as heavily managed as any sporting shoot. There is no way that we can ever redress the imbalance you mention because there is no way to determine a starting point to aim for. Before the industrial revolution and the exodus of people from the countryside? Before the Romans arrived? Immediately after the ice retreated and humans recolonised these islands? Can't be done.

All that can be done, IMO, is try to prevent the extinction of what we have right now. But even that is fraught with problems. How do you define what are threatened species?

Hen harriers are currently flavour of the month because they are being persecuted in England. But get on Google and you'll see that they are not globally threatened, and are doing OK elsewhere in the UK. They are being used by a well motivated and PR savvy group as a stick to beat the shooting fraternity with. These fundamentalist would like to see grouse shooting banned, and pheasants eradicated. They have a very strange agenda, and are a dangerous crowd. Mark Avery and his followers are the sort of people who would turn on angling if they managed to get shooting banned.

Then you have the likes of Packham who is a figurehead for the hen harrier campaign who has said that we should let the giant panda go extinct because it is just a flagship species and ultimately doomed, and we should save other less publicised species. Total hypocrisy.

Dangerous people IMO.
:thumbs:

Cheers Alan
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Re: Pest control and a pie

Post by fenfisher55 » Wed Aug 03 2016 18:16

The point of my responses are that I hate bigotry, hypocrisy and ignorance and particularly armchair experts who learn everything from the TV and people who have an axe to grind, Packham is an example who last night on TV told us that he has kept foxes and badgers in his bedroom!!

I am not an expert, but in my 61 years a countryman, 54 years an angler [preferably in the wild places], 40 years a photographer and yes shooting for 35 years and keeping a wild bird shoot for 20 years I have picked up a few things. I'm not an expert on anything but I believe that everyday is a schoolday.

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Re: Pest control and a pie

Post by cookiesdaughtersdad » Thu Aug 04 2016 07:33

davelumb wrote:
cookiesdaughtersdad wrote:
I find it very annoying/sad at just how selfish people can be when it comes to the species they want to thrive within the ecology we share.....
As you intimate, that applies as much to 'conservationists' (e.g. the otter) as it does to anglers and shooters.

Nature reserves are never left to their own devices, they are as heavily managed as any sporting shoot. There is no way that we can ever redress the imbalance you mention because there is no way to determine a starting point to aim for. Before the industrial revolution and the exodus of people from the countryside? Before the Romans arrived? Immediately after the ice retreated and humans recolonised these islands? Can't be done.

All that can be done, IMO, is try to prevent the extinction of what we have right now. But even that is fraught with problems. How do you define what are threatened species?

Hen harriers are currently flavour of the month because they are being persecuted in England. But get on Google and you'll see that they are not globally threatened, and are doing OK elsewhere in the UK. They are being used by a well motivated and PR savvy group as a stick to beat the shooting fraternity with. These fundamentalist would like to see grouse shooting banned, and pheasants eradicated. They have a very strange agenda, and are a dangerous crowd. Mark Avery and his followers are the sort of people who would turn on angling if they managed to get shooting banned.

Then you have the likes of Packham who is a figurehead for the hen harrier campaign who has said that we should let the giant panda go extinct because it is just a flagship species and ultimately doomed, and we should save other less publicised species. Total hypocrisy.

Dangerous people IMO.
I didnt have time to reply to you properly Dave, but as this is way above the average for length of your 14,000 odd posts it requires a little of my time to respond as it is obviously something you think hard and care about.
You are quite right regarding mans influence upon our land and waterways, its been going on for an absolute age meaning there is so very little truly natural ecosystems left.
I do think we have a duty to look after what we have, adapting to the changing world and climate, some species such as the polar bear are ultimately doomed in the wild as the ice retreats in this post glacial period so is it right for us to hang on to a 100 or so in zoos for kids to amuse themselves at in between icecreams ?.
Kev mentioned the wolves of yellowstone, fascinating story https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa5OBhXz-Q and shows nature its self is the best at looking after nature but at times like the wolves "REINTRODUCTION" :laughs: we were required to put them back.
The idea of the lynx being reintroduced to parts of Scotland then seems to be a logical step, but care needs to be taken as the indigenous cat to these shores was more of a rabbit catching sized animal similar in stature to the Iberian lynx rather than the much larger European one that people were thinking of letting go. How would this alien species affect indigenous ones such as the pine marten?
It is such a tangled web to do your best by especially if you haven't an agenda towards a particular species such as otters, harriers and magpies or a particular pastime such as shooting, birdwatching or angling.
Angling clubs are forced to spend many thousands of pounds putting fences up to protect specimen fish from otter predation and so likewise shoots should simply have to take any losses on the nose and put more birds down, people should learn to fit in alongside nature rather than make a great hole in it, for if they dont they are simply someone who shoots or fishes rather than a countryman or an angler.
I know we have done more than a many page on otters before but this species typifies this whole debate, although they were reintroduced with self serving agendas and a bollox to everyone and everything attitude, with absolutely no reason to do so other than "they thought they should", I believe that long term our waterways and the ecology that runs them will be better off for them, it is only the angler's obsession with pound and ounces and specimen sized fish that will see me in the minority for this opinion on here.
So unfortunately our countryside (planet) and the species that live within it do need looking after because of a result of our actions, the tricky thing is not what we should do, but who should decided and who should pay for it :roll:

Cheers Alan
"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity" Seneca, some Roman chap.

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Re: Pest control and a pie

Post by cookiesdaughtersdad » Thu Aug 04 2016 07:40

fenfisher55 wrote:
The point of my responses are that I hate bigotry, hypocrisy and ignorance and particularly armchair experts who learn everything from the TV and people who have an axe to grind, Packham is an example who last night on TV told us that he has kept foxes and badgers in his bedroom!!

I am not an expert, but in my 61 years a countryman, 54 years an angler [preferably in the wild places], 40 years a photographer and yes shooting for 35 years and keeping a wild bird shoot for 20 years I have picked up a few things. I'm not an expert on anything but I believe that everyday is a schoolday.
I guess you are more informed than most but I wonder two things, firstly as an angler and a guy that runs a shoot, how much of an agenda do you have to put your pastimes 1st over the natural way of things, and secondly, why would someone's opinion on this type of subject become devalued because the kept badgers and foxes in their bedroom?

Cheers Alan
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Re: Pest control and a pie

Post by davelumb » Thu Aug 04 2016 08:03

cookiesdaughtersdad wrote:
I do think we have a duty to look after what we have, adapting to the changing world and climate, some species such as the polar bear are ultimately doomed in the wild as the ice retreats in this post glacial period so is it right for us to hang on to a 100 or so in zoos for kids to amuse themselves at in between icecreams ?.
I won't quote your entire post, Alan. I don't see anything wrong with preserving specimens in zoos. It's no different to people keeping rare breed sheep, or pedigree dogs. It could, however, be used to show people what is being lost in the wild. Unlikely to have any effect, but would do no harm. And doing no harm seems to be what you are driving at.

Where we differ is that I don't see any difference between anglers wanting to control otter numbers and conservationists wanting to keep deer rabbits under control. My way of looking at things is that all the different interest groups ought to show more understanding towards each others requirements.

Out there in the real world I find it worrying that the big nature bodies like RSPB and WWT are taking on the role previously held by the landed gentry. They are buying up vast tracts of land and excluding the public from them. Ironical preventing the public from doing exactly what these bodies profess to be encouraging - getting closer to nature. Their motives are far from egalitarian and encourage an elite of privileged nature watchers - those who are sanctioned by the new land owners in the same way as those sanctioned by the gentry were allowed on their land. This time the gateway to the land isn't cash, it's education and employment.

Yes, this is something I think deeply about. It's my contention that organised conservation, and conservation law, is taking away the access to nature that people of our generations enjoyed as children. Angling is one of the few means left for people to really interact with nature (as is shooting), a way of seeing things that those stuck in hides on reserves are most unlikely to see, and if they do it's almost the same as seeing it on TV but this time framed by a hide window rather than a screen.

I could go on!

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Re: Pest control and a pie

Post by cookiesdaughtersdad » Thu Aug 04 2016 08:31

davelumb wrote:
cookiesdaughtersdad wrote:
I do think we have a duty to look after what we have, adapting to the changing world and climate, some species such as the polar bear are ultimately doomed in the wild as the ice retreats in this post glacial period so is it right for us to hang on to a 100 or so in zoos for kids to amuse themselves at in between icecreams ?.
I won't quote your entire post, Alan. I don't see anything wrong with preserving specimens in zoos. It's no different to people keeping rare breed sheep, or pedigree dogs. It could, however, be used to show people what is being lost in the wild. Unlikely to have any effect, but would do no harm. And doing no harm seems to be what you are driving at.

Where we differ is that I don't see any difference between anglers wanting to control otter numbers and conservationists wanting to keep deer rabbits under control. My way of looking at things is that all the different interest groups ought to show more understanding towards each others requirements.

Out there in the real world I find it worrying that the big nature bodies like RSPB and WWT are taking on the role previously held by the landed gentry. They are buying up vast tracts of land and excluding the public from them. Ironical preventing the public from doing exactly what these bodies profess to be encouraging - getting closer to nature. Their motives are far from egalitarian and encourage an elite of privileged nature watchers - those who are sanctioned by the new land owners in the same way as those sanctioned by the gentry were allowed on their land. This time the gateway to the land isn't cash, it's education and employment.

Yes, this is something I think deeply about. It's my contention that organised conservation, and conservation law, is taking away the access to nature that people of our generations enjoyed as children. Angling is one of the few means left for people to really interact with nature (as is shooting), a way of seeing things that those stuck in hides on reserves are most unlikely to see, and if they do it's almost the same as seeing it on TV but this time framed by a hide window rather than a screen.

I could go on!
No Dave I think we are from the same hymn sheet on that and I find it astonishing how some take it all as being theirs rather than ours, RSPB and the likes included :roll:

So could I :laughs:

Cheers Alan
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Re: Pest control and a pie

Post by davelumb » Thu Aug 04 2016 09:04

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