Our Collie

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Tdreamer
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Our Collie

Post by Tdreamer » Tue Nov 08 2016 01:47

He's a nightmare. Nearly a year and half old and still hyper. Change of diet to proper dry food Wainwright's. And he has one hour off the lead and at least 4 other walks. A day. Gets attention when he looks for it. And still when we're near home he enters attack mode. Not all the time but too often. Jumping and biting. If I chib him off he gets angry and it gets worse. I have had a dog behaviour therapist out. Gave some advice but it didn't seem to make a massive difference. At wits end sometimes. He's staying with us cos he can be a good wee dog sometime. But has a vicious streak.

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Freako
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Re: Our Collie

Post by Freako » Tue Nov 08 2016 03:04

Try getting some sheep :giggle:
Mick.

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Re: Our Collie

Post by Tdreamer » Tue Nov 08 2016 08:28

If you were from Aberdeen I could see why you would say that

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Duncan Holmes
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Re: Our Collie

Post by Duncan Holmes » Tue Nov 08 2016 08:54

Tdreamer wrote:
He's a nightmare. Nearly a year and half old and still hyper. Change of diet to proper dry food Wainwright's. And he has one hour off the lead and at least 4 other walks. A day. Gets attention when he looks for it. And still when we're near home he enters attack mode. Not all the time but too often. Jumping and biting. If I chib him off he gets angry and it gets worse. I have had a dog behaviour therapist out. Gave some advice but it didn't seem to make a massive difference. At wits end sometimes. He's staying with us cos he can be a good wee dog sometime. But has a vicious streak.
I generally subscribe to the "pack" theory with dogs, in that if a dog knows its place with the "pack" i.e. your family it is a happy dog.

The bit that stands out in the post is "Gets attention when he looks for it", to me that is wrong, a dog should get attention when You decide, it should be fed when You decide, and You need to be the boss ALL the time.

Some small things can make a massive difference when asserting pack status.

Does he go out of the door / gate first?
Does he eat before you do?
Does he have free access to your space i.e. bedrooms, lounge, etc.
Does he decide when its play / fuss time.
Does he end up with the toy/ball after you have played.

If the answer is yes to those questions, you are very likely creating a behaviour which makes him think he is equal / above you in the pack status and is probably the route of the problems.

A friend of mine had some issues with a male dog, she simply changed the feeding so that she would scrape the scraps off her plate (or pretend to) in to his bowl making sure he could see. It made a massive difference to his behaviour and his/her relationship. The dog now believed he was eating her leftovers and adopted the relevant pack status, simple but for her life changing.

Have a look for a book called "The Dog Listener" by Jan Fennell, it describes in detail what I have put in to a few lines.

The pack line of thinking, has always worked for me in a lifetime of having big guarding breeds, and it has helped a few people I know.
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Re: Our Collie

Post by Kev Berry » Tue Nov 08 2016 13:00

Duncan Holmes wrote:
Tdreamer wrote:
He's a nightmare. Nearly a year and half old and still hyper. Change of diet to proper dry food Wainwright's. And he has one hour off the lead and at least 4 other walks. A day. Gets attention when he looks for it. And still when we're near home he enters attack mode. Not all the time but too often. Jumping and biting. If I chib him off he gets angry and it gets worse. I have had a dog behaviour therapist out. Gave some advice but it didn't seem to make a massive difference. At wits end sometimes. He's staying with us cos he can be a good wee dog sometime. But has a vicious streak.
I generally subscribe to the "pack" theory with dogs, in that if a dog knows its place with the "pack" i.e. your family it is a happy dog.

The bit that stands out in the post is "Gets attention when he looks for it", to me that is wrong, a dog should get attention when You decide, it should be fed when You decide, and You need to be the boss ALL the time.

Some small things can make a massive difference when asserting pack status.

Does he go out of the door / gate first?
Does he eat before you do?
Does he have free access to your space i.e. bedrooms, lounge, etc.
Does he decide when its play / fuss time.
Does he end up with the toy/ball after you have played.

If the answer is yes to those questions, you are very likely creating a behaviour which makes him think he is equal / above you in the pack status and is probably the route of the problems.

A friend of mine had some issues with a male dog, she simply changed the feeding so that she would scrape the scraps off her plate (or pretend to) in to his bowl making sure he could see. It made a massive difference to his behaviour and his/her relationship. The dog now believed he was eating her leftovers and adopted the relevant pack status, simple but for her life changing.

Have a look for a book called "The Dog Listener" by Jan Fennell, it describes in detail what I have put in to a few lines.

The pack line of thinking, has always worked for me in a lifetime of having big guarding breeds, and it has helped a few people I know.
spot on there Duncan,
would like to add that collies are a working breed of dog and 50 miles running a day or more is what they are capable of , so you wont EVER tire one out. Plus their herding instinct is actually a very tightly controlled hunting one, and they can be a bit snappy with the teeth especially if they think they top dog.
Next time it tries to boss you about its time to show him who is the real boss---and this means the rest of the family as well.
Many dogs don't like being no 1, but are put in this position by their owners not understanding the ways of dogs. Being no1 is very stressful to the dogs who don't want to be no 1, and this could also be a cause of the problems with this dog.
A collie can make a brilliant family dog if it knows its place

get rid of the dog therapist, plenty of people on here can help you out for nothing :thumbs:

Daniel
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Re: Our Collie

Post by Daniel » Tue Nov 08 2016 13:56

Make its brain work. You'll never physically tire a collie so loads of mental stimulation is needed.

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Jason Skilton
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Re: Our Collie

Post by Jason Skilton » Tue Nov 08 2016 22:33

Spot on we have a collie and he's too darn clever, so we play game with him and he has a toy box.

Hiding toys and seeking them out is a favourite game or treats under cups he works out the cup with the treat.....loads of mind games and voice command. Riley has about 20 different commands....
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Re: Our Collie

Post by cookiesdaughtersdad » Sat Nov 12 2016 05:08

Tdreamer wrote:
He's a nightmare. Nearly a year and half old and still hyper. Change of diet to proper dry food Wainwright's. And he has one hour off the lead and at least 4 other walks. A day. Gets attention when he looks for it. And still when we're near home he enters attack mode. Not all the time but too often. Jumping and biting. If I chib him off he gets angry and it gets worse. I have had a dog behaviour therapist out. Gave some advice but it didn't seem to make a massive difference. At wits end sometimes. He's staying with us cos he can be a good wee dog sometime. But has a vicious streak.
Thats what collies are like and why I personally wouldn't have one, great dogs mind "but" for the right person!
Agree totally with the pack idea Duncan and Kev write about, dogs don't care if they are top dog or way down the order, they just need to know where they are, all the fuss comes about from wanting to be just one position higher.
For the benefit of you, your family and the dog, It is your job to make that dog the lowest member of the pack by a long way.
Simple things like pretending to eat its dinner as said, or when you get home you ignore the dog for a few minutes until you decide to give it attention.
That dog doesn't get a life unless you decide to give it one, remember that and they will learn most times.
You can learn from books but unlike Kev I do recommend behaviorists to people who need help, they are not training the dog, they are training you :wink:
As said I do think that compared to some breeds that collies are hard work, so the sooner you change your ways, the sooner and better the chance your dog will become the pet you wanted.
Sometimes unfortunately things don't work out for the best and you shouldnt let a dog ruin your life, except it didnt work out with that particular animal and move on and find it another home, it will be better for you and the dog.

Cheers Alan
"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity" Seneca, some Roman chap.

Kev Berry
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Re: Our Collie

Post by Kev Berry » Sat Nov 12 2016 12:13

cookiesdaughtersdad wrote:
Tdreamer wrote:
He's a nightmare. Nearly a year and half old and still hyper. Change of diet to proper dry food Wainwright's. And he has one hour off the lead and at least 4 other walks. A day. Gets attention when he looks for it. And still when we're near home he enters attack mode. Not all the time but too often. Jumping and biting. If I chib him off he gets angry and it gets worse. I have had a dog behaviour therapist out. Gave some advice but it didn't seem to make a massive difference. At wits end sometimes. He's staying with us cos he can be a good wee dog sometime. But has a vicious streak.
Thats what collies are like and why I personally wouldn't have one, great dogs mind "but" for the right person!
Agree totally with the pack idea Duncan and Kev write about, dogs don't care if they are top dog or way down the order, they just need to know where they are, all the fuss comes about from wanting to be just one position higher.
For the benefit of you, your family and the dog, It is your job to make that dog the lowest member of the pack by a long way.
Simple things like pretending to eat its dinner as said, or when you get home you ignore the dog for a few minutes until you decide to give it attention.
That dog doesn't get a life unless you decide to give it one, remember that and they will learn most times.
You can learn from books but unlike Kev I do recommend behaviorists to people who need help, they are not training the dog, they are training you :wink:
As said I do think that compared to some breeds that collies are hard work, so the sooner you change your ways, the sooner and better the chance your dog will become the pet you wanted.
Sometimes unfortunately things don't work out for the best and you shouldnt let a dog ruin your life, except it didnt work out with that particular animal and move on and find it another home, it will be better for you and the dog.

Cheers Alan
sorry Alan but you are wrong there, some dogs don't want to be top dog, but the position is often forced onto them by people not understanding them.
In a pack a non contender will know his place because he is constantly reminded of it by the alpha dog, a growl here, a nip there and he is put in his place, sometimes for doing nothing wrong.
In a family home where the dog is allowed to do as it likes without any control he automatically becomes top dog in his mind, after all no one is stopping him doing anything .
This sometimes means a dog who dosnt want to be top dog has the position thrust on him, and it stresses them out. Which causes more problems. He is the top dog, and if you or your kids does anything that he thinks needs a nip or a growl that is what happens.

As for behaviour therapists---- :laughs: you are right its the owners that need training----and they should be able to get the training they need from who has bred the dog, in fact if they are novices to dogs they should only be able to get one after being vigorously questioned about what they know regards having one.

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Re: Our Collie

Post by cookiesdaughtersdad » Sun Nov 13 2016 09:00

Kev Berry wrote:
cookiesdaughtersdad wrote:
Tdreamer wrote:
He's a nightmare. Nearly a year and half old and still hyper. Change of diet to proper dry food Wainwright's. And he has one hour off the lead and at least 4 other walks. A day. Gets attention when he looks for it. And still when we're near home he enters attack mode. Not all the time but too often. Jumping and biting. If I chib him off he gets angry and it gets worse. I have had a dog behaviour therapist out. Gave some advice but it didn't seem to make a massive difference. At wits end sometimes. He's staying with us cos he can be a good wee dog sometime. But has a vicious streak.
Thats what collies are like and why I personally wouldn't have one, great dogs mind "but" for the right person!
Agree totally with the pack idea Duncan and Kev write about, dogs don't care if they are top dog or way down the order, they just need to know where they are, all the fuss comes about from wanting to be just one position higher.
For the benefit of you, your family and the dog, It is your job to make that dog the lowest member of the pack by a long way.
Simple things like pretending to eat its dinner as said, or when you get home you ignore the dog for a few minutes until you decide to give it attention.
That dog doesn't get a life unless you decide to give it one, remember that and they will learn most times.
You can learn from books but unlike Kev I do recommend behaviorists to people who need help, they are not training the dog, they are training you :wink:
As said I do think that compared to some breeds that collies are hard work, so the sooner you change your ways, the sooner and better the chance your dog will become the pet you wanted.
Sometimes unfortunately things don't work out for the best and you shouldnt let a dog ruin your life, except it didnt work out with that particular animal and move on and find it another home, it will be better for you and the dog.

Cheers Alan
sorry Alan but you are wrong there, some dogs don't want to be top dog, but the position is often forced onto them by people not understanding them.
In a pack a non contender will know his place because he is constantly reminded of it by the alpha dog, a growl here, a nip there and he is put in his place, sometimes for doing nothing wrong.
In a family home where the dog is allowed to do as it likes without any control he automatically becomes top dog in his mind, after all no one is stopping him doing anything .
This sometimes means a dog who dosnt want to be top dog has the position thrust on him, and it stresses them out. Which causes more problems. He is the top dog, and if you or your kids does anything that he thinks needs a nip or a growl that is what happens.

As for behaviour therapists---- :laughs: you are right its the owners that need training----and they should be able to get the training they need from who has bred the dog, in fact if they are novices to dogs they should only be able to get one after being vigorously questioned about what they know regards having one.
No Kev you are wrong and on a subject about dogs :laughs:

That is unless the years of breeding have managed to breed out some of the most basic instincts that a dog can have, to eat 1st, to sleep in the better spots and to breed.
Your post is contradictory, you say that not all dogs dont want to be Alpha and then you say that given the chance, they will automatically (instinctively) take the Alpha role given the chance by us :shrug:
Actually in the pack most dogs never get the chance, even from an early age, slight genetic differences can be seen even as the litter suckles on mum, little pushes and shoves to get by the nipples that produce the most milk, the pack hierarchy starts to get sorted straight away.
If the alpha was killed, the beta would step straight into its position, gets to eat first and importantly to feck the alpha female, that would be when the fights start, for all the subordinate wolves would start jostling for position, even the omega, the lowest of the low, may fancy stepping up a rank.
Take all the other members of the pack out and you watch the omegas balls grow, he would be very happy about being alpha as well until one of his sons fancies the job.
All we have to do it to create a pack within our families that insures the dog takes the omega position, with all other family members way above them.
A good friend of mine has one of those Alaskan Malamutes, big fecker as well, Paul has allowed that dog to become the betta member and a dangerous fecker he is as well and goes with your idea of blaming the deed, not the breed.
I dont know why you poo poo dog behaviorists as you do, for someone with your knowledge, if you didnt have the shop and a busy life, could do it.
My wife has spent the last 4 years or so training to be a hypnotherapist and counsellor, seems silly to some but a lot of people just dont know how to fix it.
Not everyone has the right mentality or knowledge towards being a dog owner as with the Tdreamer, many people think that love is enough and thats where the mistakes begin.

Cheers Alan
"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity" Seneca, some Roman chap.

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Re: Our Collie

Post by Tdreamer » Sun Nov 13 2016 11:00

Is it correct you should never scold a dog. And. Hit it a crack if its way out of order. I've hit our Luka just twice. Worked a treat and made him back down. Didn't like doing it though. First occasion I was under attack wi my dress clothing on for a funeral. Was that bad I couldn't go. Trousers covered in mud and torn. Sounds funny but at the time it was far from it. Letting him off when out I realise is necessary. But any other dogs and he's off to them and a couple of times there's been a bit of a scrap he's working stock. Not really suitable for a family pet. But. I would say he is a keeper. We've had him since 10 weeks old. And on occasions can be great fun and a dog to enjoy walking. If my dad was still alive he would've sorted him out at an early age.

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Re: Our Collie

Post by Kev Berry » Sun Nov 13 2016 18:41

cookiesdaughtersdad wrote:
Kev Berry wrote:
cookiesdaughtersdad wrote:
Tdreamer wrote:
He's a nightmare. Nearly a year and half old and still hyper. Change of diet to proper dry food Wainwright's. And he has one hour off the lead and at least 4 other walks. A day. Gets attention when he looks for it. And still when we're near home he enters attack mode. Not all the time but too often. Jumping and biting. If I chib him off he gets angry and it gets worse. I have had a dog behaviour therapist out. Gave some advice but it didn't seem to make a massive difference. At wits end sometimes. He's staying with us cos he can be a good wee dog sometime. But has a vicious streak.
Thats what collies are like and why I personally wouldn't have one, great dogs mind "but" for the right person!
Agree totally with the pack idea Duncan and Kev write about, dogs don't care if they are top dog or way down the order, they just need to know where they are, all the fuss comes about from wanting to be just one position higher.
For the benefit of you, your family and the dog, It is your job to make that dog the lowest member of the pack by a long way.
Simple things like pretending to eat its dinner as said, or when you get home you ignore the dog for a few minutes until you decide to give it attention.
That dog doesn't get a life unless you decide to give it one, remember that and they will learn most times.
You can learn from books but unlike Kev I do recommend behaviorists to people who need help, they are not training the dog, they are training you :wink:
As said I do think that compared to some breeds that collies are hard work, so the sooner you change your ways, the sooner and better the chance your dog will become the pet you wanted.
Sometimes unfortunately things don't work out for the best and you shouldnt let a dog ruin your life, except it didnt work out with that particular animal and move on and find it another home, it will be better for you and the dog.

Cheers Alan
sorry Alan but you are wrong there, some dogs don't want to be top dog, but the position is often forced onto them by people not understanding them.
In a pack a non contender will know his place because he is constantly reminded of it by the alpha dog, a growl here, a nip there and he is put in his place, sometimes for doing nothing wrong.
In a family home where the dog is allowed to do as it likes without any control he automatically becomes top dog in his mind, after all no one is stopping him doing anything .
This sometimes means a dog who dosnt want to be top dog has the position thrust on him, and it stresses them out. Which causes more problems. He is the top dog, and if you or your kids does anything that he thinks needs a nip or a growl that is what happens.

As for behaviour therapists---- :laughs: you are right its the owners that need training----and they should be able to get the training they need from who has bred the dog, in fact if they are novices to dogs they should only be able to get one after being vigorously questioned about what they know regards having one.
No Kev you are wrong and on a subject about dogs :laughs:

That is unless the years of breeding have managed to breed out some of the most basic instincts that a dog can have, to eat 1st, to sleep in the better spots and to breed.
Your post is contradictory, you say that not all dogs dont want to be Alpha and then you say that given the chance, they will automatically (instinctively) take the Alpha role given the chance by us :shrug:
Actually in the pack most dogs never get the chance, even from an early age, slight genetic differences can be seen even as the litter suckles on mum, little pushes and shoves to get by the nipples that produce the most milk, the pack hierarchy starts to get sorted straight away.
If the alpha was killed, the beta would step straight into its position, gets to eat first and importantly to feck the alpha female, that would be when the fights start, for all the subordinate wolves would start jostling for position, even the omega, the lowest of the low, may fancy stepping up a rank.
Take all the other members of the pack out and you watch the omegas balls grow, he would be very happy about being alpha as well until one of his sons fancies the job.
All we have to do it to create a pack within our families that insures the dog takes the omega position, with all other family members way above them.
A good friend of mine has one of those Alaskan Malamutes, big fecker as well, Paul has allowed that dog to become the betta member and a dangerous fecker he is as well and goes with your idea of blaming the deed, not the breed.
I dont know why you poo poo dog behaviorists as you do, for someone with your knowledge, if you didnt have the shop and a busy life, could do it.
My wife has spent the last 4 years or so training to be a hypnotherapist and counsellor, seems silly to some but a lot of people just dont know how to fix it.
Not everyone has the right mentality or knowledge towards being a dog owner as with the Tdreamer, many people think that love is enough and thats where the mistakes begin.

Cheers Alan
No Alan I am not wrong please read the bit where I said the alpha dog position is FORCED onto them, they do not take it and they don't like being no 1---this is why old ladies often have little rabid balls of fluff,-----they are stressed out being no 1.

I poo poo behaviourists Alan because they usually charge a bomb for doing what is available free from people who have made dogs a part of their lives. I would never dream of charging someone to sort their problems out, I see it that by helping someone its one less dog abandoned, destroyed or chucked into rescue----- or someone hurt.

Having seen some advice from these "behaviourists" I often wonder if they have ever had a dog before :laughs:

cookiesdaughtersdad
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Re: Our Collie

Post by cookiesdaughtersdad » Mon Nov 14 2016 21:20

Kev Berry wrote:
cookiesdaughtersdad wrote:
Kev Berry wrote:
cookiesdaughtersdad wrote:
Tdreamer wrote:
He's a nightmare. Nearly a year and half old and still hyper. Change of diet to proper dry food Wainwright's. And he has one hour off the lead and at least 4 other walks. A day. Gets attention when he looks for it. And still when we're near home he enters attack mode. Not all the time but too often. Jumping and biting. If I chib him off he gets angry and it gets worse. I have had a dog behaviour therapist out. Gave some advice but it didn't seem to make a massive difference. At wits end sometimes. He's staying with us cos he can be a good wee dog sometime. But has a vicious streak.
Thats what collies are like and why I personally wouldn't have one, great dogs mind "but" for the right person!
Agree totally with the pack idea Duncan and Kev write about, dogs don't care if they are top dog or way down the order, they just need to know where they are, all the fuss comes about from wanting to be just one position higher.
For the benefit of you, your family and the dog, It is your job to make that dog the lowest member of the pack by a long way.
Simple things like pretending to eat its dinner as said, or when you get home you ignore the dog for a few minutes until you decide to give it attention.
That dog doesn't get a life unless you decide to give it one, remember that and they will learn most times.
You can learn from books but unlike Kev I do recommend behaviorists to people who need help, they are not training the dog, they are training you :wink:
As said I do think that compared to some breeds that collies are hard work, so the sooner you change your ways, the sooner and better the chance your dog will become the pet you wanted.
Sometimes unfortunately things don't work out for the best and you shouldnt let a dog ruin your life, except it didnt work out with that particular animal and move on and find it another home, it will be better for you and the dog.

Cheers Alan
sorry Alan but you are wrong there, some dogs don't want to be top dog, but the position is often forced onto them by people not understanding them.
In a pack a non contender will know his place because he is constantly reminded of it by the alpha dog, a growl here, a nip there and he is put in his place, sometimes for doing nothing wrong.
In a family home where the dog is allowed to do as it likes without any control he automatically becomes top dog in his mind, after all no one is stopping him doing anything .
This sometimes means a dog who dosnt want to be top dog has the position thrust on him, and it stresses them out. Which causes more problems. He is the top dog, and if you or your kids does anything that he thinks needs a nip or a growl that is what happens.

As for behaviour therapists---- :laughs: you are right its the owners that need training----and they should be able to get the training they need from who has bred the dog, in fact if they are novices to dogs they should only be able to get one after being vigorously questioned about what they know regards having one.
No Kev you are wrong and on a subject about dogs :laughs:

That is unless the years of breeding have managed to breed out some of the most basic instincts that a dog can have, to eat 1st, to sleep in the better spots and to breed.
Your post is contradictory, you say that not all dogs dont want to be Alpha and then you say that given the chance, they will automatically (instinctively) take the Alpha role given the chance by us :shrug:
Actually in the pack most dogs never get the chance, even from an early age, slight genetic differences can be seen even as the litter suckles on mum, little pushes and shoves to get by the nipples that produce the most milk, the pack hierarchy starts to get sorted straight away.
If the alpha was killed, the beta would step straight into its position, gets to eat first and importantly to feck the alpha female, that would be when the fights start, for all the subordinate wolves would start jostling for position, even the omega, the lowest of the low, may fancy stepping up a rank.
Take all the other members of the pack out and you watch the omegas balls grow, he would be very happy about being alpha as well until one of his sons fancies the job.
All we have to do it to create a pack within our families that insures the dog takes the omega position, with all other family members way above them.
A good friend of mine has one of those Alaskan Malamutes, big fecker as well, Paul has allowed that dog to become the betta member and a dangerous fecker he is as well and goes with your idea of blaming the deed, not the breed.
I dont know why you poo poo dog behaviorists as you do, for someone with your knowledge, if you didnt have the shop and a busy life, could do it.
My wife has spent the last 4 years or so training to be a hypnotherapist and counsellor, seems silly to some but a lot of people just dont know how to fix it.
Not everyone has the right mentality or knowledge towards being a dog owner as with the Tdreamer, many people think that love is enough and thats where the mistakes begin.

Cheers Alan
No Alan I am not wrong please read the bit where I said the alpha dog position is FORCED onto them, they do not take it and they don't like being no 1---this is why old ladies often have little rabid balls of fluff,-----they are stressed out being no 1.

I poo poo behaviourists Alan because they usually charge a bomb for doing what is available free from people who have made dogs a part of their lives. I would never dream of charging someone to sort their problems out, I see it that by helping someone its one less dog abandoned, destroyed or chucked into rescue----- or someone hurt.

Having seen some advice from these "behaviourists" I often wonder if they have ever had a dog before :laughs:
I disagree Kev :thumbs: , I dont think it is forced upon them at all, its just in a normal pack situation, some animals dont have the genetic balls to fight for top spot and is why, some breeders produce better pets than others due to the strain of the dogs they have, sometimes it is indeed the breed,ing that doesnt help rather than simply the deed, two Patterdales I know are different in more ways than just body shape.
Now the little rabid balls of fluff you say about, put enough of those together and a pack would form, alphas, betas and omegas, they would sort themselves out, its just with an old lady who adopts the omega role, the little ball of fluff can fill their boots and become dominant, taking the roles of all pack members above that of the omega (my theory) and is why dogs are better off in at least pairs.
Cats are very different where they live longer and healthier lives when they are the only cat.
A big factor is I think is that most dogs are taken out of their birth pack within their formative weeks, they have barely had a chance to sort out who's who and suddenly they are put into another pack where everyone is running around trying to please them, food, attention, everything they could ask for, even a bed where they can lay next to other pack members, often getting the best spot.
You poo poo behaviorists in the same way some people would poo poo counsellors, lots of what they may say to clients is freely available but offering a professional, qualified and ongoing service, clients can buck the trend in a more structured manner than if friend or two simply chip in with advice.
Like many things along these lines, there are different schools of thought as there are many ways to skin a cat, the best way to skin the cat isnt always yours mate and why the word "opinion" is an old one.
Part of the reason that I think, that you think :grin: , the way you do is that I doubt that you have had an only dog for many years, all of your animals have I guess been within a more natural and so structured pack made up of many other dogs where they find their place, whereas most dogs are raised in a one dog pack, the influence of that is something I think you dont get :stir:
I disagree with you on these points but respect your opinion on it as obviously dogs have been and are a big part of your life for some time, but don't worry, I'm sure we can find something else to disagree on :wink:

Cheers Alan
"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity" Seneca, some Roman chap.

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Re: Our Collie

Post by Kev Berry » Tue Nov 15 2016 00:30

Alan Iam not going to copy the above as it takes too much room up.
You know not a lot about me or my dogs---I have had long periods of owning single dogs as well as dozens of them, at the moment I have only one bulldog.

Let me explain about the "forced" alpha dog. A little old lady gets a fluffy bundle for a companion, its one of her few friends and the only company she has. She never reprimands it, she fusses over it, lets it sleep where it wants, gives it her food , feeds it better food than she has, lets the little fecker do whatever it wants.
It becomes exactly like an alpha dog, but without a fight. Except this little bundle dosnt want to be no 1, it wants to be further down the pack, it wants to be "told" what it can do. It hasn't had to assert itself in any way ---yet it is no 1 over the old lady and it is stressed, which is why they become snappy hysterical little swines.
This is the same problem with larger dogs in households who know nothing of dogs---except that its funny watching a little dog go off on one isn't it when it dosnt get its own way, and not quite so funny when a bigger dog dosnt get his own way and asserts himself as alpha dogs do.
These dogs are not alpha dogs---they are like teenagers who have grown up having no discipline and don't like being told what to do .
A true alpha dog will not back down to other members of the pack.
But these "forced" alpha dogs are only too willing to back down when brought to heel.
Nothing to do with genetics at all Alan---all pack animals, flocks of chickens etc have a pecking order---the biggest, or the strongest or the most determined becomes c*ck of the roost.
one thing I have NEVER done Alan is let my multiple dogs ever form a pack, I have never let them all run together as a pack does. ALL my dogs know I am the boss and never to be challenged, the place of ALL my dogs is the lowest in my family, I do not allow any of them to become no 2 dog.

Puppies taken away when 7-8 weeks of age are at the PRIME time to learn how to start behaving, older puppies who havnt been sold by this time and are kept separate from the household and other dogs start to form their own pack with pack rules, and when sold at several months old its usually a bit more difficult getting them to conform to how you want them to behave as a family member.

Like I said earlier Alan, I dont think some of these er qualified (who the feck qualified them :laughs: ) behaviour specialists have got a clue nor ever owned a dog judging by the way some tell people what to do.
I have had a dog since I was 4 years old, I don't think I have ever been without one for more than a few weeks at a time. I have helped sort out more than a few problem dogs (sorry, problem owners) and I have NEVER had any problem with the "killer" dogs :laughs: I have owned or bred either (one of my neos became a PAT dog)

So anything you want to know about dogs Alan feel free to ask my opinion, be a damn site quicker than trolling the internet :wink:

heres one thing to think of---why do people sometimes get bit when they stroke a strange dog ?

its because they approach it head on, eyeball it and invariably put their hand on its head/neck/shoulders---all of which is a sign of dominance.
Bet you've seen dogs do just that, put a paw across anothers back/neck and you thought they were just being friends :laughs: what it really means is-- "I'm the daddy, ok"

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Re: Our Collie

Post by cookiesdaughtersdad » Tue Nov 15 2016 02:07

I agree with a lot of what you write Kev but you do like to state the bleeding obvious at times :grin: and you keep using the little ball of fluff as an analogy, those little balls of fluff don't know they are little balls of fluff and in fact think they are fecking great wolves so I dont know why you would assume that none of them want to be in the alpha position :scratch:
As the old saying goes, "it's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!" which is a good one.
I dont think animals need to fight to be happy and stress free in the alpha position, fighting is dangerous and in the wild can lead to an early death so bulshite usually prevails with most species but of course when that fails :fight: are inevitable.
Of course it has something to do with genetics, why on earth then aren't all animals from the same litter the same and why there are different species of animals and different breeds of domestic animals with inherently different traits and behaviors, it all starts with genetics.
These inherent traits and behaviors is why I will never agree with you on why some breeds of dogs are more dangerous than others, all this blame the deed business doesn't allow for the fact that poor or inexperienced owners have a wide variety of dogs and yet the same old culprits keep doing the damage, I would actually say its breed x deed, remember those big muscular jaws and heavily set frames these dogs have, why do you think they were desired traits to the breeders, then all you have to do is flick the switch and the rest of their inherent traits kick in :afraid: ,
You may not have had any problem with your killer dogs but I seem to remember that your good lady did, got that one wrong mate and I sincerely hope she is well :thumbs:
I cant work it out either that you appear to assume all behaviorists are useless and none of them can possible know as much as you, a strange yet recurring theme oh all knowing and all seeing one :grin:
You would probably be surprised to know how little time I spend on google, it is probably quicker than asking you and I would most likely uncover more balanced and less biased opinions but you never know I may get in touch :wink:

Anyways mate I look forward to your reply, if you haven't lost the will to live that is :laughs:

Cheers Alan
"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity" Seneca, some Roman chap.

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Re: Our Collie

Post by Kev Berry » Tue Nov 15 2016 09:15

Firstly Alan my now ex good lady took in a rescue. It was not one of my dogs. Secondly after watching this dog for a while I told her exactly what this dog was going to do. And it did. It had come from Pakistani owners so she knew what the dogs history was. IMO this dog was beyond saving. I did put this up in previous posts. But yet again Alan you are being a very naughty boy and twisting things.
Dogs don't recognise size. A big dog is just another dog to a small one.
I don't think you understand dogs Alan. You keep saying it's genetics that produce alpha dogs and then you won't accept that some dogs don't want to be alpha dogs.
Was Hitler and his mates stalin Churchill etc leaders because of genetics :laughs:
Whether you THINK alpha dogs have to fight to attain or retain there position is irrelevant....the fact is they do. And they constantly have to remind those below them. Watch any programme on wolf behaviour. It can be a look a growl or a full blown fight to put a usurper in his place.
I don't THINK about dogs Alan. After 56 years of owning training showing breeding and kennelling them I KNOW about them. May not be the best at writing what I know but what I do know comes from experience of my own dogs and from other people like myself

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Re: Our Collie

Post by Kev Berry » Tue Nov 15 2016 09:15

Firstly Alan my now ex good lady took in a rescue. It was not one of my dogs. Secondly after watching this dog for a while I told her exactly what this dog was going to do. And it did. It had come from Pakistani owners so she knew what the dogs history was. IMO this dog was beyond saving. I did put this up in previous posts. But yet again Alan you are being a very naughty boy and twisting things.
Dogs don't recognise size. A big dog is just another dog to a small one.
I don't think you understand dogs Alan. You keep saying it's genetics that produce alpha dogs and then you won't accept that some dogs don't want to be alpha dogs.
Was Hitler and his mates stalin Churchill etc leaders because of genetics :laughs:
Whether you THINK alpha dogs have to fight to attain or retain there position is irrelevant....the fact is they do. And they constantly have to remind those below them. Watch any programme on wolf behaviour. It can be a look a growl or a full blown fight to put a usurper in his place.
I don't THINK about dogs Alan. After 56 years of owning training showing breeding and kennelling them I KNOW about them. May not be the best at writing what I know but what I do know comes from experience of my own dogs and from other people like myself

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Re: Our Collie

Post by Kev Berry » Tue Nov 15 2016 09:54

regarding your deed v the breed------when one of my little balls of rabid fluff goes off on one it is doing EXACTLY what a uncontrolled pit bull does Alan---EXACTLY THE SAME----only a little chi dosnt have the right tackle to get himself on the front page of the papers. So it isn't "in the breed" at all, it is how they are raised----which is why these dogs that are supposed to be killers (lets change that and say CAN kill) can be walked amongst people without any fear of attacking them.
Do you give a bunch of chavs a wide berth if they have a couple of cross breeds with them Alan?
Do you give a couple with a kid in a pushchair walking the same sort of cross breed the same wide wide berth?
I know what the answer to that is :laughs:
better people than me in the dog world Alan and including the KC , RSPCA tossers, and even the police ,plus many recognised dog experts have all said its not the breed.
Everyone knows the DDA and breed specifics etc was a rushed through, ill thought, and just of knee jerk reaction by w****r mp's rushing to shut people up.

regarding the chav dogs, most are portrayed as staffie cross dogs---I believe I put a link up some while ago showing the history of and why a staffy is also called the nanny dog. Just think what it has taken to undo all of that with various crossings.

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Re: Our Collie

Post by cookiesdaughtersdad » Wed Nov 16 2016 08:43

Kev Berry wrote:
Firstly Alan my now ex good lady took in a rescue. It was not one of my dogs. Secondly after watching this dog for a while I told her exactly what this dog was going to do. And it did. It had come from Pakistani owners so she knew what the dogs history was. IMO this dog was beyond saving. I did put this up in previous posts. But yet again Alan you are being a very naughty boy and twisting things.
Dogs don't recognise size. A big dog is just another dog to a small one.
I don't think you understand dogs Alan. You keep saying it's genetics that produce alpha dogs and then you won't accept that some dogs don't want to be alpha dogs.
Was Hitler and his mates stalin Churchill etc leaders because of genetics :laughs:
Whether you THINK alpha dogs have to fight to attain or retain there position is irrelevant....the fact is they do. And they constantly have to remind those below them. Watch any programme on wolf behaviour. It can be a look a growl or a full blown fight to put a usurper in his place.
I don't THINK about dogs Alan. After 56 years of owning training showing breeding and kennelling them I KNOW about them. May not be the best at writing what I know but what I do know comes from experience of my own dogs and from other people like myself
The reason I brought that up Kev is that I wouldnt have allowed the fecking thing in my house and you shouldnt have either, the fact that it was taken into your home makes it in some way your dog, I wasnt being clever, naughty or trying to twist things and wouldnt want to upset you :wink:

You make many good points Kev as stated and are obviously experienced and knowledgeable about dogs, other than the last few years I have had dogs "all" my life and have enough experience and knowledge about them and animals in general to have an informed yet different opinion to yours on some points that we just won't agree on, simples :wink:

Cheers Alan
"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity" Seneca, some Roman chap.

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Re: Our Collie

Post by Kev Berry » Wed Nov 16 2016 10:27

The dog in question Alan seemed ok. Fine with other dogs. But I can "read" most dogs. And I told Christine from the start that it would attack her very soon and from behind. She was attacked while preparing the dogs meals. It came up to her pushing in so to speak. She shoved it behind her and told her off and it nailed her. I didn't want the dog....she did ....try telling YOUR partner she can't have something. Her mistake her responsibility not mine. I was right and she got it wrong. Her motivation was money serves her right.
Should have bought the dog a bone instead of taking it to the vets. Licked my face as I held her while the needle went in.

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Re: Our Collie

Post by cookiesdaughtersdad » Wed Nov 16 2016 21:59

:wink:

Cheers Alan
"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity" Seneca, some Roman chap.

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